Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

[Treacle Toes]

If the police murder back and white people equally then identity politics would have nothing to say. Yet there could still be plenty of room for a campaign against Police violence.

Why is using a fantasy situation to prove a point helpful here? Why can't we focus on how things actually are as a way of deciding and exploring what approaches are necessary/helpful?

 

[Idris2002]

In America they have #blacklivesmatter.

In Kenya they have this:



Why the difference? Because in the former country there is an added factor, that of anti-black racism, which makes it easier for the police to, literally, get away with murder - and this is what makes the simple assertion of the worth and value of black lives a deeply political act.

 

[Red Cat]

These are real issues affecting people in the here and now, and as I stated it's ALWAYS the people affected who are most keenly tuned to identifying what needs to be done to resist.

Why do you say this with such confidence?

I don't like this distrust of anything that isn't experienced personally. I'm all for looking at how knowledge is created, who gets to say what counts as knowledge, how that knowledge is used, but it's almost as though any expertise outside of an individual's experience is seen as oppressive in itself, a pretence of objectivity that represents power and control. And of course knowledge can be used in this way, but we do also need experience beyond ourselves.

 

[LDC]

Why do you say this with such confidence?

I don't like this distrust of anything that isn't experienced personally. I'm all for looking at how knowledge is created, who gets to say what counts as knowledge, how that knowledge is used, but it's almost as though any expertise outside of an individual's experience is seen as oppressive in itself, a pretence of objectivity that represents power and control. And of course knowledge can be used in this way, but we do also need experience beyond ourselves.

Also one of the complications with this reliance on experience within identity politics is the conflict it creates even within the identity politics scene where people are fighting over who has the most authentic voice/position for the ******* community.

I've seen it rip groups and scenes apart where, for example, someone claims something is racist/transphobic, and then that's denied by other members of the group and then those people are denounced as complicit with white supremacy/transphobia.

So if personal experience is so crucially important, how on earth do you pick whose experience and perspectives to listen to and take on board, even from just within the community you're talking about?

 

[alsoknownas]

Why do you say this with such confidence?

I don't like this distrust of anything that isn't experienced personally. I'm all for looking at how knowledge is created, who gets to say what counts as knowledge, how that knowledge is used, but it's almost as though any expertise outside of an individual's experience is seen as oppressive in itself, a pretence of objectivity that represents power and control. And of course knowledge can be used in this way, but we do also need experience beyond ourselves.

I don't mean to dismiss other perspectives or voices, that's not my thing at all. I'm more trying to highlight the way that when groups face unique aspects of struggle there's often a significant period where they have to work hard just to convince people outside of that situation that the problem actually exists, and then the urgency of it, and then that it might be a good idea to try and do something about it. Are we gonna kid ourself that we live in a world where (for instance) blokes are just as keenly tuned to the nuanced ways that discrimination works its way into the lives of women? That's why I think it can be really valuable to organise around shared identity. Of course there can be negative outcomes as a result of this, but there can be negative outcomes from people trying to organise in the name of Socialism too.

 

[alsoknownas]

Also one of the complications with this reliance on experience within identity politics is the conflict it creates even within the identity politics scene where people are fighting over who has the most authentic voice/position for the ******* community.

I've seen it rip groups and scenes apart where, for example, someone claims something is racist/transphobic, and then that's denied by other members of the group and then those people are denounced as complicit with white supremacy/transphobia.

So if personal experience is so crucially important, how on earth do you pick whose experience and perspectives to listen to and take on board, even from just within the community you're talking about?

Just because these things are difficult to pick apart doesn't mean they're not the right conversations to be having. Just because people have the ability to hijack these ideas and use them to promote their own power within the group doesn't mean the ideas themselves are not valid. It seems strange to me that anyone interested in Socialism wouldn't recognise this, as the same bullshit takes place in many lefty groups with people accusing each other of all manner of state complicity etc.

 

[mauvais]

Very likely pointing out the obvious but there are two things going on here. Being the subject of oppression may well inform you about the realities of oppression more than if you were a bystander, so experience has its unique value. But that's independent from being knowledgeable or in a position they can leverage as regards tackling the root causes. Just as, say, being in a plane crash doesn't make you qualified in or well placed to improve aviation safety, and conversely those who do fit that description don't necessarily require the personal experience to effect a change. There may be overlap, and it may be a problem that there isn't more overlap between experience & power, but in the absence of it, collaboration of those two things is probably required rather than simply conflating the two.

 

[Treacle Toes]

if as a (e.g) black worker who do you turn to for support at work? Your white co-workers or your black boss?

Trying to illustrate this simply...

It's pretty simple already. I suppose it depends on the point you are trying to make.

Is it...

1. You should always turn to your colleagues because a boss is a boss regardless of any common traits and experiences you might share?

chilango

Did you miss this question or do you not want to discuss it anymore? I personally found it interesting.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

God I hate the term co-worker. What's wrong with colleague? Even just that little term seems designed to me to stress separateness - someone who works next to me, that's all.

Probably overreacting, but it's one of those terms that makes me cringe just reading it.

 

[chilango]

chilango

Did you miss this question or do you not want to discuss it anymore? I personally found it interesting.

Sorry, got distracted!

The answer is (of course) it depends.

But, and obviously this remains oversimplified, I'm looking at the default "if all else is equal" response. Who does one tend to have more common cause with?

 

[chilango]

God I hate the term co-worker. What's wrong with colleague? Even just that little term seems designed to me to stress separateness - someone who works next to me, that's all.

Probably overreacting, but it's one of those terms that makes me cringe just reading it.

Fair enough. I prefer "workmates" but that (for me) has an implication already of shared interest whilst "colleagues" (again, for me) implies a certain distance. I tried to pick a neutral (for me) term.

Tricky business language innit?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Sorry, got distracted!

The answer is (of course) it depends.

But, and obviously this remains oversimplified, I'm looking at the default "if all else is equal" response. Who does one tend to have more common cause with?

The 'all else is equal' response takes us into the realms of hypothetical though doesn't it? Unless you have a particular example/context in mind that you'd like to discuss where all else is equal? I am interested in having these conversations in the context of how things actually are because I don't think we can get anywhere with regard what approach is better for x, y, z reasons unless we stay in 'default' which is now.

 

[Red Cat]

God I hate the term co-worker. What's wrong with colleague? Even just that little term seems designed to me to stress separateness - someone who works next to me, that's all.

Probably overreacting, but it's one of those terms that makes me cringe just reading it.

But colleague can be your manager, co-worker implies a more equal status. I think.

 

[chilango]

The 'all else is equal' response takes us into the realms of hypothetical though doesn't it? Unless you have a particular example/context in mind that you'd like to discuss where all else is equal? I am interested in having these conversations in the context of how things actually are because I don't think we can get anywhere with regard what approach is better for x, y, z reasons unless we stay in 'default' which is now.

Well, I would always turn to my workmates. But as a whitecishetman who takes a marxish approach to the workplace that doesn't really help us much I'm interested to hear what others think.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But colleague can be your manager, co-worker implies a more equal status. I think.

To me, co-worker is American for colleague. But I may be out of step.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Well, I would always turn to my workmates. But as a whitecishetman who takes a marxish approach to the workplace that doesn't really help us much I'm interested to hear what others think.

Which takes us to the depends realm doesn't it?...because I always turn to my colleagues too...but surely there are reasons why either of us might not, and the boss being Black could have naff all to do with a lot of reasons why we might or not surely?

 

[emanymton]

Fair enough. I prefer "workmates" but that (for me) has an implication already of shared interest whilst "colleagues" (again, for me) implies a certain distance. I tried to pick a neutral (for me) term.

Tricky business language innit?

Comrades, obviously.

 

[mauvais]

Why would you (this person) seek to define and apply a one-size-fits-all dogmatic approach in the first place?

You can presumably make a situational judgement about what's likely to constitute the greater help/impediment to whatever you're trying to do, like a possibly upside-down Maslow. After which something resembling identity politics may or may not be useful to you.

 

[emanymton]

Sure, but this is the easy bit - without doing anything, you're passively deriving a benefit from their campaign, so of course you are aligned to it, but that's a one way relationship. The difficult questions come once it's necessary to prod at whether and how you yourself might do anything useful towards that campaign, rather than the broader one you're talking about, without introducing dilution or other problems. If not, then you are outside it, even if working in parallel for the same higher level goal.

Yes. But that's a big 'if', and arguably only a situation that arises as the product of that identity-driven campaign. Y'know, effectively, 'IDP would have nothing left to say if it won'. Well, yeah.

Well I thought my first post made it obvious that I wasn't talking talking about being passive. I guess many people will benefit in a passive fashion, but I was thinking about those of us who are active participants, however big or small. Which is why I mentioned not liking the term allies.

This comes back to the importance of the principals of solidarity and an injury to one being an injury to all. These principles mean that we should not just Stand up against oppression or injustice because it is the right thing to do, which of course it is. But because an injury to one really is an injury to us all. Rather than subsuming, particular oppressions into some homogeneous mass as is sometimes claimed, they infact, emphasis the importance of us all standing against any form of oppression or injustice.


As for you point about the police. Well you neatly demonstrate the problem I think. A victory for Identity politics could mean absolutely nothing in absolute terms. Stunning victory.

 

[chilango]

Which takes us to the depends realm doesn't it?...because I always turn to my colleagues too...but surely there are reasons why either of us might not, and the boss being Black could have naff all to do with a lot of reasons why we might or not surely?

Well you said

You should always turn to your colleagues because a boss is a boss regardless of any common traits and experiences you might share?

I'm wondering when/if/how those "common traits and experiences" come into play. They don't for me. But then why would they?

 

[mauvais]

This comes back to the importance of the principals of solidarity and an injury to one being an injury to all. These principles mean that we should not just Stand up against oppression or injustice because it is the right thing to do, which of course it is. But because an injury to one really is an injury to us all. Rather than subsuming, particular oppressions into some homogeneous mass as is sometimes claimed, they infact, emphasis the importance of us all standing against any form of oppression or injustice.

Agreed, I think. But while I imagine your version of this solidarity is probably an honest loan of your efforts directed on the oppressed's terms with their consent, the practical reality of alliance is often a much muddier thing involving dilution, co-option, a lack of experience, etcetera, which can ultimately destroy the entire thing. So how do you keep that at bay? Arguably the easiest option is resorting to identity and exclusion.

 

[chilango]

I'm wondering when/if/how those "common traits and experiences" come into play. They don't for me. But then why would they?

Actually, I can think of examples (close to this) in my life.

I had a fairly big problem whilst working with n Italy, did I turn to my English speaking British boss? Or the my Italian speaking, Italian union comrades?

Spoiler: Answer

The union, obviously

...but I still don't think that's an equivalent example. Whilst working abroad I always had more common cause with my non-British workmates than I did with my British bosses.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Well you said



I'm wondering when/if/how those "common traits and experiences" come into play. They don't for me. But then why would they?

No i didn't say it, I asked if that was what you were getting at.

You seriously can't imagine any situations in the workplace when someone may feel the need to turn to their boss rather than their colleagues?

 

[chilango]

No i didn't say it, I asked if that was what you were getting at.

You seriously can't imagine any situations in the workplace when someone may feel the need to turn to their boss rather than their colleagues?

I don't want to imagine them, I want to hear about them.

 

[alsoknownas]

As for you point about the police. Well you neatly demonstrate the problem I think. A victory for Identity politics could mean absolutely nothing in absolute terms. Stunning victory.

It would mean quite a bit to the people who's deaths were prevented, and others actually effected by the direct threat of brutality. I imagine they might be quite eager to challenge your definition of 'absolutely nothing'.

 

[The39thStep]

The current focus on identity politics discussion (outside of urban I mean) is very enlightening in throwing light on the structural inequalities in instructions mentioned by ska above

Institutions or instructions?

 

[alfajobrob]

Jesus my eyes are bleeding..maybe I can identify as a non hand ex Christian stigmartist?

Who knows - in today's brave new world it all seems possible?

Sorry - I've changed my mind. I'm a 3 legged dog with cancer now and would appreciate whatever correct pronoun applies..

You can just call me a cunt!

 

[Treacle Toes]

Jesus my eyes are bleeding..maybe I can identify as a non hand ex Christian stigmartist?

Who knows - in today's brave new world it all seems possible?

Sorry - I've changed my mind. I'm a 3 legged dog with cancer now and would appreciate whatever correct pronoun applies..

You can just call me a cunt!

How nice of you to parade your choices in front of us and imagine we actually care?

 

[alfajobrob]

How nice of you to parade your choices in front of us and imagine we actually care?

I give less of a fuck than you about this shit...stop whingeing constantly and I won't comment....otherwise call me Rover.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

Institutions or instructions?