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Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

From reading about half of that (sorry it got quite boring after a bit) it seems that safe spaces don’t refer to women’s refuges or care homes for kids with learning disabilities. But to left wing political groups.

And feminist book groups :D :D :D


I am a little confused about the 'funny' here tbh apart from the examples given been pretty extreme. :hmm:

Surely the whole worry and arguments about allowing trans women into women only 'spaces' (which you seemed to understand) is connected to safeguarding/safe space for example. Even if there's little evidence to suggest that it will lead to widespread abuse.
 
I was thinking that one of the problems with criticising identity politics is that feeling that actually you are just not wanting to include marginalised groups, or are criticising them, or even silencing them.

I’ve just read another article that DLR sent me. It was kinda putting identity politics in the context of the last 150 years of socialist movements.

Anyway, among a (fair amount!) of another stuff it made the following points. That identity politics emerged in the 1960s and 70s and was a response to what I think was termed reductionism. Basically the idea of the worker being a white male factory worker, and socialism thought not therefore being inclusive of black people or women and the more specific struggles they faced. Both outside and inside the home in the case of women.

How that reductionism was challenged by movements like the Black Panthers, the Young Lords (Puerto Rican), and feminists the Combahee River Collective (a group of pretty badass sounding black feminist lesbians). And the idea that the personal was political came along.

But over time, although it didn’t start out like that, there was a homogenisation within groups. A kind of assumption that members of a group would have the same political aims just based on that identity. And the issue of representation, that the aim is to get a member of the identity group in a position of power, and then the interests of that group would be represented. That seems to me where it went wrong? That assumption that based on identity you share political aims.

And then the different identities seemed to get lost. There was no unifying goal, no objective, no shared understanding of how their oppression was linked. And so instead of doing what was set out to be done- to widen socialism to include these groups using these ideas- the very opposite is occurring. Identity politics is being used to divide and exclude.

Now, I may have paraphrased that to the point of being wrong. So is that a reasonable understanding?
 
But over time, although it didn’t start out like that, there was a homogenisation within groups. A kind of assumption that members of a group would have the same political aims just based on that identity. And the issue of representation, that the aim is to get a member of the identity group in a position of power, and then the interests of that group would be represented. That seems to me where it went wrong? That assumption that based on identity you share political aims.

Sounds very much how people characterise and talk about their expectations of the Working Class too don't you think?
 
Some of the Panthers were IdPol, others weren’t. The former argued for black nationalism/separatism, the latter argued for socialism and class politics.
The BNP were mates with black nationalists, they hate socialists.
Why so?
 
I am a little confused about the 'funny' here tbh apart from the examples given been pretty extreme. :hmm:

Surely the whole worry and arguments about allowing trans women into women only 'spaces' (which you seemed to understand) is connected to safeguarding/safe space for example. Even if there's little evidence to suggest that it will lead to widespread abuse.
I think we are talking at cross purposes. I don’t have a problem with safe spaces when it comes down to physically protecting people from violence. It is protecting people from ideas and debate and offence where I have a problem with it.

The laughing bit was about Danny’s missus’ book group experience. That kind of thing is funny. And it’s exactly the kind of stuff that badly needs the piss taking out it.
 
Some of the Panthers were IdPol, others weren’t. The former argued for black nationalism/separatism, the latter argued for socialism and class politics.
The BNP were mates with black nationalists, they hate socialists.
Why so?
Well I guess cos the black nationalists and white nationalists essentially had the same political aim? To create states based on a single race?

I didn’t know that btw, about the BNP and the Panthers.
 
I’m not sure what you mean?

a homogenisation within groups. A kind of assumption that members of a group would have the same political aims just based on that identity. And the issue of representation, that the aim is to get a member of the identity group in a position of power, and then the interests of that group would be represented.

I am saying that I think there is a similar expectation of the WC, that somehow there is homogeneity and that we all have the same aims.
 
Well I guess cos the black nationalists and white nationalists essentially had the same political aim? To create states based on a single race?

I didn’t know that btw, about the BNP and the Panthers.

The BNP and black nationalists, rather than the idpol panthers (although the politics are the same)
 
I am saying that I think there is a similar expectation of the WC, that somehow there is homogeneity and that we all have the same aims.
I think it’s fair enough to say that all working people wished they got paid more, that there working conditions were better, and that they had a three day weekend. Beyond that I’d probably agree that there mightn’t be any kind of homogeneous aims.
 
Personally I see it as being more about not seeing everything that feels therapeutic as therapy.

There are different ways to help/support people and for different reasons. The 'challenge' or the challenging part is often the least talked about part of any of it. We create safe/trusting/confidential relationships/spaces in which the 'challenge' takes place, or can.

Something therapeutic is likely to be uncomfortable if by therapeutic we mean change. And bringing out the different parts of ourselves that are in conflict, that may be acted out out in conflict with others, and perhaps bearing that conflict rather than trying to make it go away or avoiding it. But that does depend on the model of psychotherapy and I don't really want to make the discussion about different types of therapy.

And I appreciate I was being simplistic.
 
interests, not aims. and we do.

Yes, I think so. Although we are certainly not homogenous in how we express ourselves, in our aims and aspirations, in our cultural and social positions...we are definitely oppressed by the same power relations which diminish and break us in a very homogenous way.The same precarity, the same indifference and even contempt from a political class, the same snickering disdain. the same poverty.
 
Seriously?

Oh come on. I could have expanded on my point without you correcting me and then sneering about me making a confused post. I’ll retract what I said and apologise but a massive bugbear of mine as to why the right are doing so well compared with us (and why I snapped at belboid the other day) is precisely this kind of thing where the most articulate are arsey towards their lessers.
 
I think it’s fair enough to say that all working people wished they got paid more, that there working conditions were better, and that they had a three day weekend. Beyond that I’d probably agree that there mightn’t be any kind of homogeneous aims.
But the point is that class structure is something that cuts across identities. So that you can have a woman who is a CEO of a company who employs other women as cleaners on poverty wages. The CEO and the cleaners are women but they don't have the same interests.
 
Oh come on. I could have expanded on my point without you correcting me and then sneering about me making a confused post. I’ll retract what I said and apologise but a massive bugbear of mine as to why the right are doing so well compared with us (and why I snapped at belboid the other day) is precisely this kind of thing where the most articulate are arsey towards their lessers.
Where did you get "daft prole" from? That's entirely in your imagination.

Sorry for the offence caused, but don't add stuff that wasn't there.
 
But the point is that class structure is something that cuts across identities. So that you can have a woman who is a CEO of a company who employs other women as cleaners on poverty wages. The CEO and the cleaners are women but they don't have the same interests.
Yes, I get that. Or:
On April 12, 2015, six Baltimore police officers, of which three were black, murdered 19-year-old Freddie Gray under the watch of a black police commissioner, mayor, attorney general, and President of the United States.
 
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