TruXta
tired
How do you figure that? Do you mean intelligence as defined by psychometric tests?
Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.
- Thread starter danny la rouge
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danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
What "counts" as intelligence is culturally defined by the dominant class (without necessarily knowing it).
When I was an undergraduate, we were set loose on local preschool children to do a vocabulary comprehension test in which a word was read to the child, and the child was then invited to indicate which of four pictures best represented the word. I carried out the test with kids from the Raploch area of Stirling, and they all failed one word: "Greet". Because in one of the four possible pictures there was a sad face. The "correct" picture was two people shaking hands. No Middle Class kids from SE England would misidentify that, but all working class Scots kids know that 'greeting' means 'crying'. These tests are riven with such class ethnocentrism. I pointed out the blind spot in the test, but the lecturer didn't take me seriously.
bimble
floofy
I sat an IQ test as a kid and some of the questions were ‘what’s missing from this picture’ . The test presumed that every child would know that a mans tribly hat should have a band round it. Why I still remember this I’ve no idea, probably because I’d never seen such a hat in my life. Absurd.
TruXta
tired
Sure, but then you're talking about the modern, scientific concept of intelligence - IQ. I happen to think that is a bogus theory.
Intelligence in a wider sense I'm not sure is always and everywhere defined by the dominant class.
If, as suggested, the 'cultural construction' by a dominant class is true, where are the spaces for resistance?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
There's two parts to this: yes, I agree IQ is bogus. That's a specific issue.
But a wider issue is to do with cultural capital and the unknowingly-made assumptions of the class that gets to define intelligence in the wider sense. (Surely everyone knows the opening line of Ozymandias?).
I've been trying to remember the name of the study that showed white middle class psychiatrists were seeing loud and "agressive" domino playing as a symptom of (as I remember) schizophrenia, whereas the people concerned were West Indian men, in whose culture dominos is always played that way!
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
What do you mean by “intelligence in a wider sense”?
TruXta
tired
I'll get back to you after dinner and bedtime for the little one...
TruXta
tired
Right, snatching an opportunity while the wee bairn is having a bath.
The way I see it, intelligence in the wider sense is broadly twofold.
First there's what Danny's talking about above - knowledge about cultural domains, like how to wear a hat, or what the difference between a fish and other creatures are. This is always going to be bound and shaped by class and other structural factors.
Secondly, there's what you can call domain-independent mental abilities. Things like how good your working memory is, your ability to learn (what Bateson called second order learning), solving spatial problems, and so on.
In my view, intelligence in a wider sense is the combination of these things.
Does that make sense to you?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Well, it's perhaps a question for another thread, but there's a huge debate about what intelligence actually is, and the consensus is that it is (or includes) many things. The kind of thing you and I were discussing - whether a hat should have a hat band or not - perhaps comes under explicit knowledge, which is the information people have and access about specific life situations which can be readily articulated and passed on. The question here is, who defines that?
Whilst it’s tempting to just dismiss crystallised intelligence as not “real” intelligence, I’m not sure things are that straightforward. The more you know, the more tools you have to work with in tackling other problems. The boundaries are fuzzy at best. But, in turn, that means the cultural decisions about what is important to know are tremendously important.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
And there's a continuum to consider. We might excuse people not knowing where to place a fish fork on the table (to use bimble's example), but I think most people would wonder about the other cognitive abilities of a 35-year-old who doesn't know whether to use a fork or a spoon to eat soup.
What about a 35-year-old who can't make a cup of tea? Boil an egg? Identify a spatula? Etc.
But this is all really the territory of another thread.
bimble
floofy
You make it sound like I should be ashamed of the fact that just last week I looked up the recipe for boiled eggs in a book.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
First, create the universe...
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Then decide: chicken or ...
seventh bullet
sovietwave
I'm 36 and plain shit at cooking generally.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
I love eating nice food made by other people though.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Sure, but we have culturally defined expectations of what level of culinary competence is the acceptable range for an intelligent adult. And it is those cultural expectations that can be influenced by the class of those doing any measuring.
I am friends with a couple who invite us for meals from time to time. The wife always mentions if it's her husband cooking, because she knows people will be more likely to come. But she is perfectly capable of making tea or coffee if you call round in the afternoon say. And I think it is a social expectation, certainly in my culture, to offer visitors a cup of tea. Inability to afford that would be a measure of poverty. Inability to perform that would be a measure of general competence.
But what are the cultural expectations of academics who might be devising scales of competence? Are they the same as mine? Yours? Or do they in fact have different expectations that they may not even be aware are different?
NB: this is interesting but way off topic now.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
I was being flippant. I agree with your earlier posts.
I also don't need the lesson on how middle class people define the likes of me.
I'm off now to get a Pot Noodle.
I also don't need the lesson on how middle class people define the likes of me.
I'm off now to get a Pot Noodle.
It is an often dispiriting reality that the elite think they are correct because they went to university, whilst in reality, they simply sneer at the prols because they are poor, and do so because they have been conditioned by the university out of sub-conscious tribalism.
Even more dispiriting is the `house prole` who will pander to the elite in the hope of entering the kingdom of the middle classes but are usually used as a doll of authenticity within their guilt culture.
This I have seen with my bleeding eyes over and over again within the radical culture in the western enclaves. It divides groups and stops action if it is not addressed - which is what I am accused of every time I bring this up.
You cant win the class war with your big words.
Even more dispiriting is the `house prole` who will pander to the elite in the hope of entering the kingdom of the middle classes but are usually used as a doll of authenticity within their guilt culture.
This I have seen with my bleeding eyes over and over again within the radical culture in the western enclaves. It divides groups and stops action if it is not addressed - which is what I am accused of every time I bring this up.
You cant win the class war with your big words.
This is true as working class people are often sceptical about people who bamboozle them with language that doesn’t mean anything to them but I’d argue that the class shouldn’t be discouraged from further educating themselves just because the middle class occupy that territory.
Agreed 100%
<- self-educated working class (ok i went to college to do sound engineering but thats it)
The statement about big words was suggesting that the university educated are batting for the wrong team unless they burn these class prejudices, as almost every working class activist has already done.
edit-
I do find a lot of this language unnecessary for debate and possibly is reminiscent of the use of Latin in the courts and slang by the youth/oppresed - that is deliberately exluding.
<- self-educated working class (ok i went to college to do sound engineering but thats it)
The statement about big words was suggesting that the university educated are batting for the wrong team unless they burn these class prejudices, as almost every working class activist has already done.
edit-
I do find a lot of this language unnecessary for debate and possibly is reminiscent of the use of Latin in the courts and slang by the youth/oppresed - that is deliberately exluding.
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emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Carrie Gracie: BBC offered £45k rise but I wanted equality
She was offered a rise more than twice my annual salary. But as I am a man I'm the one who is privileged?
She was offered a rise more than twice my annual salary. But as I am a man I'm the one who is privileged?
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Comments like this are like, silencing
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
Well Not unless you are one of the men doing the same job for the BBC earning 50% more - who is saying you are priveleged? Are you feeling hard done by? over 70% of the people in the world earn less than $10 day. Or is just that you don't you like it when you hear about women earning more than you?
It is 47 years since the equal pay act, yet illegal pay inequality is still not uncommon, and on the whole parity in pay between men and women is is still rare. Carrie Gracie is in a privileged position in a world media role and has given up her own well paid job in order to bring this issue to public attention. I was on barely above min in my last job with no chance of tackling the pay gap I could see amongst my low paid co-workers.
Gender pay gap revealed at 500 UK firms
Explain that structural inequality by class analysis please. Or do you think the female strikers at Ford Dagenham just indulging in gender politics?
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
like silencing? silencing who?
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