Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

[mojo pixy]

It's the only answer I can give, and if there are posters here whose politics are actively opposed to mine there are more (I feel) whose are not.

I don't really have an adversarial mindset here. Poke at it if you like but for me the enemy as such is outside of these boards.

 

[Treacle Toes]

what's with the activist-y checklisting?

If we don't meet the credentials are we automatically disqualified from having opinion becausee we approach things theoretically?

Absolutely not what is being said Dial.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

I’m most definitely the enemy, as a result of my current relationship to capital. In a few years, however, I hope to change this and maybe even become an ally. I will still be the same person, but in different circumstances. In its own way, this little story in and of itself reveals the limitations of identity politics.

Well so am i arguably (family background) but on the individual level you can only talk about relations I.E: capitalists/workers right?

 

[DotCommunist]

I’m most definitely the enemy, as a result of my current relationship to capital. In a few years, however, I hope to change this and maybe even become an ally. I will still be the same person, but in different circumstances. In its own way, this little story in and of itself reveals the limitations of identity politics.

A bit like Engels but with numbers things rather than factory owning

 

[Athos]

It's the only answer I can give, and if there are posters here whose politics are actively opposed to mine there are more (I feel) whose are not.

I don't really have an adversarial mindset here. Poke at it if you like but for me the enemy as such is outside of these boards.

I'm not sure I understand the significance of the forum over and above the content.

 

[kabbes]

Well so am i arguably (family background) but on the individual level you can only talk about relations I.E: capitalists/workers right?

I would say that is right, but identity politics wants to talk about in-groups and out-groups, not relations (except for identity relations, which are different)

 

[kabbes]

A bit like Engels but with numbers eater than factory owning

Number wrangling is the new factory ownership, or something. Tumpty tumpty cotton mills finance bills.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

I would say that is right, but identity politics wants to talk about in-groups and out-groups, not relations (except for identity relations, which are different)

Identity relations just sounds like a obfuscatory concept ripe for abuse tbf.

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm not sure I understand the significance of the forum over and above the content.

I'm not sure I understand ''the significance of the forum over and above the content''
I'm just saying that I don't come here for a fight. Your mileage may vary.

 

[kabbes]

I'm not sure I understand ''the significance of the forum over and above the content''
I'm just saying that I don't come here for a fight. Your mileage may vary.

I don’t come here to not have a fight.

 

[JimW]

I don’t come here to not have a fight.

I'll hold your coat.

 

[Athos]

I'm not sure I understand ''the significance of the forum over and above the content''
I'm just saying that I don't come here for a fight. Your mileage may vary.

I meant that I find it odd that your objection to a particular position seems so tied up with where that position is expressed, rather than what it consists of.

 

[mojo pixy]

It isn't.

I somehow manage to negotiate all kinds of situations with all kinds of people without conflict. I like to think of it as being a well-adjusted adult.

 

[Athos]

It isn't.

I somehow manage to negotiate all kinds of situations with all kinds of people without conflict. I like to think of it as being a well-adjusted adult.

Hippy!

 

[newbie]

See links.

to what end? You say, in the first of those, "All nationalism has the misdirection that its allegiance tends to be towards a state.". Sure, I agree, but that has nothing to do with nationality which is not an allegiance it's an identity. I have a nationality but am not a nationalist. That's true of huge numbers of people to a greater or lesser extent, especially if you discount supporting the national team at the footie. Just as there are plenty who express nationalist allegiance to a state they don't hold nationality for.

 

[mojo pixy]

Hippy!

I hate hippies. They actually are the enemy.

 

[danny la rouge]

to what end?

To the end of seeing that the points you raise are covered.

 

[friendofdorothy]

That's all we can do isn't it? Remind ourselves what our core values are and change/build on/mature them?

Also...

Have you started your new job yet?

Is there a active union in your new place?

If so, join, integrate, agitate!

thanks

not yet - december

Will have to wait and see.

I'm still a Unite member. Thanks for the encouragement

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think I said a lot about my own politics and thoughts early on in this thread - when I was asking for clarification on what ID politics is - because sometimes my posts had been dismissed as ID pol here on urb75 and I'd never heard of it in RL. It seemed to be agreed that fighting for your rights as a lgbt person wasn't in itself IDpol. Then some posters said my views weren't ID pol at all and I had acted in solidarity. I've always been quite clear about my views - see my op on combatting hopelessness thread.

In my last few posts I've been trying to find out how much of the behaviours that are being decried and labelled as ID pol, take place in real life and how much is just on line, because the way power/politics works on-line is genuinely a mystery to me. I work in a care home and no one talks about class - I imagine most of my co-workers have never even heard of ID politics

I suspect that it's safe to say that most of your co-workers have been affected by class, though. If you're working class or lower middle class, that will have been the case from when you first went to school, although you might not recognise it. Then you've got the issue that the "lower" down the class ladder you are born, the poorer your life-chances are. This isn't stuff that any identity politics I've seen practiced in the last 30 years, has analysed. I've seen plenty of decent analysis by academics like Paul Gilroy, based around a class construction, but not by identity politics, which seems to be somewhat of an ideological magpie, nicking bits and pieces of research out-of-context, then using them to make id politics-supportive blanket statements.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Politics isn't a series of superficial, on-line, personal interactions.

That is part of what modern politics is, though.

 

[Athos]

That is part of what modern politics is, though.

I guess.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Similarly in the US you saw the attitude that Hilary Clinton was a better candidate for women than Bernie Sanders, because she was a woman.

Whereas actually Sanders' policies would have made a far more positive impact on more women's lives in the US.

I suppose we could say that a precursor to this sort of shittery can be found in post-war Ulster politics, where some elements of the electorate were persuaded to vote along religious lines, because "Prod" or "Taig", with little regard to the actual policies.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I guess.

I think it's inescapable as a venue for politics. Unfortunately, often the analysis people give their political outpourings on Facebook is poor, and even more unfortunately, if they have followers/adherents, those people often don't question or point up the lack of analysis.

For me, identity politics in the form quantified at the start of this thread, lacks analysis beyond a self-perpetuating "I say that a, b and c are true, therefore a, b and c are true". That's not to say that some other mode of id-pol won't come along with a more nuanced social analysis, but nothing I've seen yet has convinced me that that anyone is halfway there.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I suppose we could say that a precursor to this sort of shittery can be found in post-war Ulster politics, where some elements of the electorate were persuaded to vote along religious lines, because "Prod" or "Taig", with little regard to the actual policies.

Which leads us to the 1990s and the muslim vote:
Croissants and roses - New Labour, communalism, and the rise of muslim Britain

 

[Athos]

For me, identity politics in the form quantified at the start of this thread, lacks analysis beyond a self-perpetuating "I say that a, b and c are true, therefore a, b and c are true".

Yes. People with an IDPol/liberal perspective often seem to take a nuance-free, sentimental moralist position, and act all offended that anyone should have the temerity to apply some critical thinking to it. Like that's a personal attack. Yesterday, I got ticked off for being "rude" and "demanding" for politely asking a poster for some evidence to back up their assertions.

 

[elbows]

Yes. People with an IDPol/liberal perspective often seem to take a nuance-free, sentimental moralist position, and act all offended that anyone should have the temerity to apply some critical thinking to it. Like that's a personal attack. Yesterday, I got ticked off for being "rude" and "demanding" for politely asking a poster for some evidence to back up their assertions.

How can I determine that the spat in question actually had anything to do with ID politics?

 

[Athos]

How can I determine that the spat in question actually had anything to do with ID politics?

I didn't assert that it does, necessarily. I was talking about the mindset and practices of the IDpolers/liberals. Which they bring to bear in a number of contexts.

 

[elbows]

Ah OK. Not sure I've seen that many political positions that don't involve some people behaving that way at times, especially in the heat of the moment & in text on forums.

 

[Treacle Toes]

How can I determine that the spat in question actually had anything to do with ID politics?

Because he says so. Because it is always their fault, them, over there. Their behaviours and beliefs are the problem. Point, point, point...other, other, other...externalise everything that is apparently unacceptable whilst never actually being transparent about what perspective and actual experience that informs these judgements. Hiding behind a superficial online persona and OH try hard, DESPARATELY AND TIME CONSUMING HARD, pick your targets, attack, attack, attack....claim victim hood or blame them if they dare to call you out or fuck you off for doing so.

Slivver and snake and fork tongue your way around...say the right things so that the vanguard believe you are one of them, whatever and whomever that is today, on this thread. If you are questioned, feign innocence, feign humbleness. Quickly return to blaming those others though just in case, never let them get too close, or personal...grandstand and showcase, compete and win...it's their fault, them idpolitickers and liberals over there, If only they were like us, not them.

A little poem i've written.

 

[butchersapron]

Them.