Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Casually Red]

How does that help with Tahrir Square though? Which is apparently the closest thing we know about. View attachment 82017

There was a lot of speculation the MB were encouraging the tahrir square atrocities to drive women off the square. But just that, speculation . No definitive proof . They didn't seem overly annoyed by it though .
At a push , a real push, I could see some of those migrants trying to justify their actions after the fact, among themselves , by pointing to the ramblings of some bigoted sheikh . Indulging in some chauvinistic Islamic gloating and boasting, in order to glorify it as a sectarian or ethnic victory over the krauts. To try and give their sordid gangs activities an added aura or something . As flannel, boastful shite talk . And nothing more .
But as far as I can see the primary overriding motivation was criminal, anti social and hooligan in nature . A networked shower of criminal bastards who realised they had the advantages of numbers, total surprise , lack of security and possibly...for the more astute and cynical among them.. even an insight into the weakness of the liberal establishment and lefty mindset . Who'd balk at robustly challenging so many of them out of the intense , overriding fear of it being seen as racist . Which seems to have happened right across the board . And is still happening .
But these guys were pissed up . I'd say Islam was the last thing on their minds when they went about this .

 

[coley]

Plenty of muslims celebrate christmas as well and mohammed's birthday and according to salafism and especially isis thats not allowed. So not every muslim does know this stuff tbh. Its like saying that every jew knows that the talmud states jesus is boiling in excrement and that its gods commandment to spit on crosses, well ok if you say so but the first time i heard that was an antisemitic website and only much later did i discover some jewish extremists do actually believe this.

Whey, if nowt else, this thread has become a steep learning curve for at least one member

 

[Casually Red]

moreover and perhaps more seriously, you ascribe this sorry incident to islam. the best explanation i have heard for what happened in cologne, the one which is to me most persuasive, is that there are now large numbers of displaced young men in europe, far from home and without the usual societal or familial or indeed religious restraints on their behaviour. as such, they felt they had greater licence and exercised it in this appalling fashion. i really don't believe it had anything to do with islam. and nothing you have said has made me reconsider my position.

I'd slightly disagree with you here dude. In my reckoning this is probably the very same ,or at least similar, sort of anti social stuff these bastards got up to at home. And they were probably considered undesirables there as well . And their society was probably glad to see the back of them .
Virtually every country that experiences immigration outflows due to poverty, unemployment etc is very well aware it's also used as an opportunity to get rid of the bums and undesirables . Any pole or Lithuanian will tell you that. Was exactly the same in Ireland for a long while too . A court appearance for anti social behaviour or minor criminality would often see the judge informed the defendant had been planning to move abroad ..ie Britain..to seek better opportunities. Nudge and a wink later he was bailed . And became someone else's problem .
Agre with you it had little or nothing to do with Islam . Except perhaps in their own culture of ignorance , combined with the availability of online pornography, may have led them to believe western women were indeed sluts and fair game . Nothing to do with the instructions of the Koran as such, just an ignorance of western culture and people. A cartoonesque understanding .

What differed from tahrir in these instances was that some women who were attacked in some of the towns reported very clumsy attempts at chat up lines of a few words . An identical phrase they all used . Including hand written notes proffered to them immediately before the assaults . Which indicates a bizarre expectation that might actually work somehow .

 

[Casually Red]

No Bimble, you miss my point. I'm saying there are horrible examples everywhere - driven by various factors. (Sorry, could I be any vaguer!)
What distinguished the incidents in Cologne, northern English cities, and the Caliphate is the targeting of a cultural other. There are various factors even regarding that. Islam's doctrinal attitude to non-Muslims is central to those. The Fatwa (I think you posted the ref) legitimizing the rape by Sunnis of Shia captives only emphasizes the point. The militant Sunnis have denounced the Shia as murtad - apostates, no longer Muslims. As such they are beyond the law. They are potential booty.

Yes but there's zero evidence these guys were militant Sunnis , oe even religiously observant . They were drunk for starters . And this was done to Sunni women in hijabs in tahrir too . It was pure misognystic criminality there and I don't think cologne, st Pauli, Bielefeld etc was much different . In my view they just saw these women as easy targets, like in tahrir. Not as religiously permitted booty or spoils of war .

 

[frogwoman]

Whey, if nowt else, this thread has become a steep learning curve for at least one member

Its not normal. Hardly anyone actually does this, as in like its just a hundred or so people in the world or so who would, its a handful of demented lunatics, 'everyone' doesnt know that this is what you're 'meant' to do. dont worry


Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them

The first time i heard of this i didnt believe it, imagine many muslims are the same about the darker aspects of their beliefs, you cant just assume 'everyone knows' something

 

[Casually Red]

Why are so many liberals right across the West trying to obsfucate what happened on NYE, etc?

btw, Finland doesn't have that many asylum seekers, etc, so 1000 would be a considerable amount.

So that's Finland added to the list as well. This new craze...for us..seems as popular as the fucking ice bucket challenge .

The streets of Europe have been drastically changed for the worse by the looks of it . Events of mass celebration and socialising ...festivities..are going to have a very tense and fearful atmosphere surrounding them from here on in. That's an absolute disgrace. And worse than that, hatred and suspicion is often a direct result of fear . And the fear cannot be be dismissed or censored precisely because it's a totally justified fear . That has to be addressed . This is a major development in Europe. Carnivals and festivities are going to have to be heavily policed and secured . Entire towns. It's fucking crazy . And that policing and security, while it may prevent and minimise the potential for mass attacks , will also serve to reinforce that fear . And underline the major negative change that's been wrought on people's lives by open door immigration policies .

All because of an idiotic liberal social experiment turning into a frankensteins monster of sorts . As it was always going to . Our brave new liberal world . Some world .

 

[bimble]

No Im not.

I do a working class job and grew up in a working class area. I just scrape by.

Why do you assume from my posts Im a comfortably off academic?

Some people just don't know how to take a compliment.

 

[Gramsci]

Nobody...absolutely nobody...on this thread is saying that all refugees should be a tarred with the same brush . Nobody has either said that or implied it . And to suggest anyone has is the height of dishonesty . Dishonesty with an agenda behind it. Namely, if someone doesn't support your one world , no borders libertarian utopia then they're a racist .

It's a real and basic human right for women to be able to move freely around their towns and cities when out socialising in safety and security , without fear of mass assault . The open border policy that you support has badly compromised that right, which unlike your completely made up utopian "right"
that doesn't actually exist outside your head, is an actual basic human right .
There's also a basic human right to justice , a real right as opposed to a completely made up one . And the establishment cover up of these atrocities against women right across germany, not just in cologne, was a concerted attempt to deny them their right to justice .

People are genuinely angry about that . That does not make them racists. People are genuinely fearful about how drastically their basic safety , security and rights have been taken away from them overnight . That doesn't make them racists either . People want their safety restored and a guarantee it won't happen again, or get any worse . That doesn't make them racists either . But you and those who support your open borders ideology have got no answers for these people . And frankly little discernible concern for them . There's a common theme of denial and a desire for this inconvenience to just go away running through the opinions of those who support this sacred libertarian cow .

The "right" for a human being to go and wander about wherever they want in the world Does not exist and has never existed . It's unicorn stuff , an ideological luxury . And in order to accommodate this fantasy the real and existing rights we are used to exercising and take for granted are now being sacrificed .
This " right " to roam freely wherever one wants is up there with the naked ramblers " right " to do as he pleases at the expense of others quality of life. It doesn't exist anywhere outside the confines of a libertarians head.

Rights is an interesting subject that has not really been touched on.

Right to move around without restrictions by governments/ states has changed over time. In Europe it was not until period leading up to WW1 that more restrictions to movement were brought in ie passports.

So from your post you are tarring all those seeking refuge in Europe with the actions of a few. As you say the recent large scale movement of people from a war zone has compromised other peoples rights (womens) . I take it from that and reading your other posts these people should have been keep out? Or just the young men of fighting age who should be sent back to Syria to fight ISIS? Kind of thought thats whats been said on this thread. In which case it is implying all these men from the middle east are potentially a problem.

Rights now are linked to the Nation State. The problem for those , like the Syrians, is that there Nation State has collapsed. They have little in real rights. Other than , fortunately , some protection under agreements to accept refugees.

Its one of the issues with Rights is that historically they have been linked to Nation State as its developed.

If one finds oneself in the situation of losing ones Nation State then you are largely left to the mercy of charity and have no rights.

In an increasingly globalised world with conflicts and climate change leading to potentially more mass movements of people imo the notion that ones rights are linked to a particular state is no longer sufficient.

Yes women should be able to move around freely without being assaulted or harassed. Its a policing issue.

To however try and argue one group of people have real rights and another do not is imo wrong.

Rights are abstract in the sense they are created by societies over time and with struggle and argument. Do not agree with trying to divide between supposedly real rights and utopian ones. Not that long ago when womens rights would have been regarded as utopian.



Was reading this article last night which goes into Rights and Europe. Written before the recent events but still relevant to discussion on what are human rights and who do they apply to.

Tricky human rights
Since rights are guaranteed and maintained by the state, being stateless means being rightless. As Hannah Arendt reveals in the Origins of Totalitarianism, the Nazi regime first violated the civil rights of Jews to see if any state would claim them.[4] Here, depriving a people of a state was a prerequisite to physical extermination: losing citizenship, a person ceases to exist in the political world. Human rights make no difference in this context:
The prolongation of [forced migrants'] lives is due to charity and not to right, for no law exists which could force the nations to feed them; their freedom of movement, if they have it at all, gives them no right to residence which even the jailed criminal enjoys as a matter of course; and their freedom of opinion is a fool's freedom, for nothing they think matters anyhow.[5]

From this standpoint, the migrant is reduced to a living being who for the most part merely deserves compassion. Here, in terms of agency, refugees stand equal to other objects such as animals (not to be treated severely) or the environment (to be preserved for the sake of humanity's future). Likewise, we celebrate our humanity by volunteering time and resources for the refugees. And it leaves no room for their agency. In constraining the issues at play to biological survival, we suspend the civicism of refugees. All the camps with food and blankets are by no means sufficient for the task at hand, and they fix asymmetrical relations with refugees as living beings, excluded both physically and symbolically from the political space of our societies.

 

[Diamond]

I think there are a few points to step through here now.

Were the sexual assaults linked specifically to Islam as a religion, or more widely IS? Answer - no.

Were the sexual assaults linked to a culture of sexual exploitation? Answer - probably.

Is there a link between how women are treated in Muslim societies and what happened in Cologne? Answer - probably.

What does that mean for Muslim immigrants from the same societies? Answer - fuck knows.

 

[phildwyer]

Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them

The first time i heard of this i didnt believe it,

It's a big problem in Jerusalem.

Which just goes to show that no single religion has a monopoly on intolerance.

 

[coley]

Pah, I'm "Cynic of the Year" material!
Thing is, I'm not sure it's cynical to say that universities are doing this to protect themselves from lawsuits, because organisations per se, but especially money-making institutions, tend to be massively risk-averse, and consent classes are effectively a cheap form of insurance for universities.



I'm not against the idea of consent classes - in fact, earlier in the thread I said I'd like to see such classes as part of the "civics" curriculum in secondary schools.

Aye, consent classes at Uni, mandatory training in the care industry, cheap insurance against employment tribunals? Exactly.
You attempted to lift Mrs Bloggs all on your own! Despite your training telling you not to do so? She was suffocating? No excuse, you should have called 999 as per the training manual.
Bit OT, but relevant in the wider scope of the OP.

 

[Gramsci]

that doesn't actually exist outside your head, is an actual basic human right .
There's also a basic human right to justice , a real right as opposed to a completely made up one . And the establishment cover up of these atrocities against women right across germany, not just in cologne, was a concerted attempt to deny them their right to justice .

The "right" for a human being to go and wander about wherever they want in the world Does not exist and has never existed . It's unicorn stuff , an ideological luxury . And in order to accommodate this fantasy the real and existing rights we are used to exercising and take for granted are now being sacrificed .
This " right " to roam freely wherever one wants is up there with the naked ramblers " right " to do as he pleases at the expense of others quality of life. It doesn't exist anywhere outside the confines of a libertarians head.

Actually when I last helped out the refugee aid group at a donation day the largest number of donations came from Church groups not lefties. There were mainly non conformists/ Methodists etc. Turned up with van loads of stuff.

There is assumption helping refugees is lefty thing. The real "Utopians" are the Christian groups. And I saying this a an atheist. Having talked to these groups imo there is a lot to say for religion sometimes. There faith is linked to there belief in Human Rights. As well as there belief in justice for all.

 

[alfajobrob]

We need a dislike button.

 

[coley]

Its not normal. Hardly anyone actually does this, as in like its just a hundred or so people in the world or so who would, its a handful of demented lunatics, 'everyone' doesnt know that this is what you're 'meant' to do. dont worry


Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them

The first time i heard of this i didnt believe it, imagine many muslims are the same about the darker aspects of their beliefs, you cant just assume 'everyone knows' something

Aye, but as someone who's religious knowledge could be written on the back of a postage stamp, the references on here to the darker sides of most major religious texts are very informative, and quite frankly alarming, given that after years of dormancy, due to education, they seem to be coming to the fore once again?

 

[bimble]

Aye, consent classes at Uni, mandatory training in the care industry, cheap insurance against employment tribunals? Exactly...You attempted to lift Mrs Bloggs all on your own! Despite your training telling you not to do so? She was suffocating? No excuse, you should have called 999 as per the training manual.Bit OT, but relevant in the wider scope of the OP.

And your better idea (better than compulsory classes in consent, the history of feminism, the law pertaining to such things) is..

a) Definitely best to do nothing at all, and also try not speak of it because even discussing this as if it has anything to do with people arriving from other places with very different ideas about women's rights / roles is racist etc.

or

b) Build a giant Trump wall around Europe

or

... ?

 

[Casually Red]

Rights is an interesting subject that has not really been touched on.

Right to move around without restrictions by governments/ states has changed over time. In Europe it was not until period leading up to WW1 that more restrictions to movement were brought in ie passports.

So from your post you are tarring all those seeking refuge in Europe with the actions of a few. As you say the recent large scale movement of people from a war zone has compromised other peoples rights (womens) . I take it from that and reading your other posts these people should have been keep out? Or just the young men of fighting age who should be sent back to Syria to fight ISIS? Kind of thought thats whats been said on this thread. In which case it is implying all these men from the middle east are potentially a problem.

Rights now are linked to the Nation State. The problem for those , like the Syrians, is that there Nation State has collapsed. They have little in real rights. Other than , fortunately , some protection under agreements to accept refugees.

Its one of the issues with Rights is that historically they have been linked to Nation State as its developed.

If one finds oneself in the situation of losing ones Nation State then you are largely left to the mercy of charity and have no rights.

In an increasingly globalised world with conflicts and climate change leading to potentially more mass movements of people imo the notion that ones rights are linked to a particular state is no longer sufficient.

Yes women should be able to move around freely without being assaulted or harassed. Its a policing issue.

To however try and argue one group of people have real rights and another do not is imo wrong.

Rights are abstract in the sense they are created by societies over time and with struggle and argument. Do not agree with trying to divide between supposedly real rights and utopian ones. Not that long ago when womens rights would have been regarded as utopian.



Was reading this article last night which goes into Rights and Europe. Written before the recent events but still relevant to discussion on what are human rights and who do they apply to.

Long story short . You said in your opinion it was a basic human right to move wherever you wanted. It isn't. Your opinion is wrong . It's a utopian aspiration. And one that has resulted in extremely negative consequences due to the idiotic attempt to make it a reality .

The real , long fought for, and long established right of a woman to socialise freely without fear, to travel without fear, and to justice , has been very badly compromised right across Germany . That's real . And it's a direct result of the one world utopian nonsense you espouse. Directly linked to it . There's no war in Algeria, no war in morocco. We're most of these suspects so far originate from .

Women's rights , womens justice and women's security are not merely a policing issue , and to dismiss them as such is utterly disgraceful . If we were to tell feminists ...or women in general..who wanted to discuss rape that it's solely a matter for the police it would be disgraceful . Your dismissal of this as such is , i reiterate, disgraceful.

This is a societal issue, a social issue, a political issue and a moral issue as well as a legal and security issue .It's not just women who have come under attack, but societies themselves . People's way of life . The rights of Germans , or anyone else, to live in peace and security in their own state trump the rights of migrants to move there . Particularly when it's the mass influx of migrant males which is at the root of this lack of basic security for so many now .

Thanks to this pervasive and very real fear our societies are going to become even more fractured, even more dangerous, even more polarised and even more angry . It's my opinion that opinions like yours are doing nothing more than adding fuel to the flames . Because your obfuscations and dismissals, and the denials and lies of others of a similar outlook, have proven to be incendiary due to the grave seriousness of the situation .

Something you and others plainly don't take remotely seriously . Your libertarian ideology is all that matters . It trumps all .

 

[Gramsci]

Long story short . You said in your opinion it was a basic human right to move wherever you wanted. It isn't. Your opinion is wrong . It's a utopian aspiration. And one that has resulted in extremely negative consequences due to the idiotic attempt to make it a reality .

The real , long fought for, and long established right of a woman to socialise freely without fear, to travel without fear, and to justice , has been very badly compromised right across Germany . That's real . And it's a direct result of the one world utopian nonsense you espouse. Directly linked to it . There's no war in Algeria, no war in morocco. We're most of these suspects so far originate from .

Women's rights , womens justice and women's security are not merely a policing issue , and to dismiss them as such is utterly disgraceful . If we were to tell feminists ...or women in general..who wanted to discuss rape that it's solely a matter for the police it would be disgraceful . Your dismissal of this as such is , i reiterate, disgraceful.

This is a societal issue, a social issue, a political issue and a moral issue as well as a legal and security issue .It's not just women who have come under attack, but societies themselves . People's way of life . The rights of Germans , or anyone else, to live in peace and security in their own state trump the rights of migrants to move there . Particularly when it's the mass influx of migrant males which is at the root of this lack of basic security for so many now .

Thanks to this pervasive and very real fear our societies are going to become even more fractured, even more dangerous, even more polarised and even more angry . It's my opinion that opinions like yours are doing nothing more than adding fuel to the flames . Because your obfuscations and dismissals, and the denials and lies of others of a similar outlook, have proven to be incendiary due to the grave seriousness of the situation .

Something you and others plainly don't take remotely seriously . Your libertarian ideology is all that matters . It trumps all .

You make this a for or against issue.

Its not.

And your way of argument is just to heap abuse on posters who do not agree with you.

 

[alfajobrob]

Actually when I last helped out the refugee aid group at a donation day the largest number of donations came from Church groups not lefties. There were mainly non conformists/ Methodists etc. Turned up with van loads of stuff.

There is assumption helping refugees is lefty thing. The real "Utopians" are the Christian groups. And I saying this a an atheist. Having talked to these groups imo there is a lot to say for religion sometimes. There faith is linked to there belief in Human Rights. As well as there belief in justice for all.

Apologist.

 

[Casually Red]

b) Build a giant Trump wall around Europe



... ?

It's currently being built, and not just physically . Denmark has now brought in a law that states any migrants arriving there must surrender any cash or valuables in order to go towards the cost of their upkeep .im sure Poland, Czech republic, Slovakia , Hungary , finland and many other countries and politicians will be looking at that very closely . And many of them are building much more formidable physical obstacles on their borders as well .
Sections of the approach to the channel tunnel are also being flooded . And there's plans to plant natural obstacles, such as acres of extremely spiky bushes .

Right now there's a whole series of political and physical mini fortresses going up right across Europe. And it's those who espouse these measures who'll eventually be electorally popular . The left seem to want the right in power indefinitely .

 

[Gramsci]

Apologist.

For what?

 

[alfajobrob]

It's a big problem in Jerusalem.

Which just goes to show that no single religion has a monopoly on intolerance.

Wanker

 

[alfajobrob]

For what?

Whatever the current cause. An informed one mind.

 

[Gramsci]

Whatever the current cause. An informed one mind.

I am none the wiser.

 

[coley]

And your better idea (better than compulsory classes in consent, the history of feminism, the law pertaining to such things) is..

a) Definitely best to do nothing at all, and also try not speak of it because even discussing this as if it has anything to do with people arriving from other places with very different ideas about women's rights / roles is racist etc.

or

b) Build a giant Trump wall around Europe

or

... ?

C, think about it, read about it, examine and judge your cultural perspectives and hopefully become someone who treats everyone equally, irrespective of race, gender or political persuasion, also, when possible,listening to the views and trying understand the concerns of others.
Personally, still a work in progress, but hopefully getting there.

 

[alfajobrob]

I am none the wiser.

Really....

 

[Casually Red]

You make this a for or against issue.

Its not.

And your way of argument is just to heap abuse on posters who do not agree with you.

I'm against mass immigration on this scale because I believe it to be socially disastrous . And I'm not heaping personal abuse on you at all . I actually admire your commitment to helping others . I just don't think your at all realistic when it comes to this, and that we are going to end up with a situation so toxic it will be impossible to meaningfully help anyone. I'm convinced of that . Fear , fracture and friction on the scale we are witnessing will only ever lead to the rise of the right. It can do no other .
At the same time the fear and friction are very real issues that must be addressed and cannot be minimised or dismissed . To attempt to do so only magnifies them later .
I was annoyed at your dismissal of this grave situation as a policing matter. I don't however think you are a cunt, you plainly aren't. I just strongly disagree with you on this issue. I don't however remotely disagree with you providing humanitarian aid . My hats off to you on that one . Please don't misunderstand me .

 

[bimble]

C, think about it, read about it, examine and judge your cultural perspectives and hopefully become someone who treats everyone equally, irrespective of race, gender or political persuasion, also, when possible,listening to the views and trying understand the concerns of others.
Personally, still a work in progress, but hopefully getting there.

Ok. Good stuff. Enjoy. Hope everyone on the planet will join you whilst you're at it, especially the 'treat everyone equally irrespective of gender' bit. And the world will live as one.

 

[Humberto]

How much of it is simply a criminal problem? Look at that gang, their leaders with their 'success', look at us teenagers without family or a place in society. Who do you turn to? In fact if you want to get into their mindset imo it would include 'fuck religion'. All of us can cherry pick from each of the Abrahamic faiths which we don't ascribe to and say 'look, they are against everything we stand for'. I've seen it done on all three. But as I say I don't see religion driving these acts.

I keep going back to it, but I believe there are a minority who are hardened. Who ARE actually bent on fucking things up. Isolate them and the problem becomes normal every day policing. And although this may seem like 'coddling' the other side of the coin is making a respectable effort to integrate the majority. I bet many thought they were coming to a land of 'milk and honey' and have been rudely awakened. You've got to give them a chance. Which not everyone gets who is already integrated into society lets be honest.

There is something to be said for education I believe and agree with those who have made that point. But first you have to make them welcome. Tell them that their religion is welcome. House them, give them a living, treat them as citizens with equal rights and see what happens.

 

[Casually Red]

Ok. Good stuff. Enjoy. Hope everyone on the planet will join you whilst you're at it, especially the 'treat everyone equally irrespective of gender' bit. And the world will live as one.

Except for the poo munchers. They're going to the wall I'm afraid

 

[fishfinger]

It's currently being built, and not just physically . Denmark has now brought in a law that states any migrants arriving there must surrender any cash or valuables in order to go towards the cost of their upkeep...

It's still being debated in parliament, to be voted on later this month.

Migrant crisis: Denmark MPs consider seizing valuables - BBC News