Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[DrRingDing]

I knew urban would be tieing itself in knots over this.

Guardianistas gaawn mad.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I knew urban would be tieing itself in knots over this.

Guardianistas gaawn mad.

Are you proposing to take a stand on behalf of stupidity?

 

[Casually Red]

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Is this really the standard of discussion here now ... ?

Would you prefer it was compared to the average Saturday night in Scunthorpe , the average middle class dinner party or a night out in Oktobeffest , as the clever peeps did ? Or how about advising women to keep an arms length from men, or to moderate their behaviour ? All that clever stuff. That I didn't notice you criticising, much less calling stupid .

As regards standards of discussion have you any opinion on week long concerted hate campaigns designed , by complete fuckwits, to drive a number of posters clean off the forum. ? Up to standard you reckon ? Must be because you said fuck all then as well .
So I'll ignore your sudden desire for " standards of discussion " now , just as you did. When they went clean through the fucking floor. For an entire week .

 

[DrRingDing]

Are you proposing to take a stand on behalf of stupidity?

I don't think I could fit on the podium.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I don't think I could fit on the podium.

Heh, fair enough. Sorry about that. I was in a bad mood.

 

[Anudder Oik]

From the BBC last week.

The defending Lawyer of one of the people convicted for "theft" on NYE in Cologne, thanked an Afghan refugee who brought his client, Younis A to justice. He saw the theft, helped the woman get her phone back and then testified in court.

"There is a debate about foreigners going on in this country. I think it is really good that you, as an Afghan, supported the victim. I thank you for trying to protect her from my client."

Meanwhile,

A recent poll found that more than 80% of Germans no longer feel the German government is in control.

 

[Anudder Oik]

This from Breitbart;

An online political poll at a German university has revealed broad support for right wing ideas among students.
The poll conducted at the University of Cologne has shocked the general student committee who expected that like most universities there would be a much more pro-left wing outcome. Katharina Letzelter who sit on the board of the committee went so far as to say the results were “frightening.”

"Der Spiegel‘s youth magazine Bento.de reports that 1660 or so students answered 25 questions on the subject of identifying problems within the university. The project is under a broader scope of tackling racism on campus. The group found the results “problematic” when many students confirmed that they felt nationalistic or negative toward the mass migration that has been occurring since last year."


It would appear that the general student committee believes, that you are either in love with mass immigration and must accept it unconditionally, otherwise you are right wing. Their findings polarize the result into left and right based on one question with no room for a middle ground. Therefore concern is seen as racism. They seem to equate the words Nationalistic and negative.

I don't think it is right to equate feeling negative about mass immigration with right wing ideas, because your average person who is concerned about consequences or change that is currently going on is not necessarily going to agree with rightwing groups on any other issues. Why can't some people seperate these things?

 

[bimble]

They seem to equate the words Nationalistic and negative.
.. Why can't some people seperate these things?

Um. Do you think maybe the German context might have something to do with people finding 'nationalism' a problematic word to get enthusiastically behind? More than in some other countries perhaps? That's one thing to be happy about I reckon, that this didn't happen somewhere else.

Also, quoting Breitbart & co is unlikely to help clarify anything much ever.
I was searching earlier to see if there might be a decent source on the current story doing the rounds about how the Cologne police are busy investigating who leaked internal information about the night and the consequent failures in police response to the press, but the best thing I could find was the DM & Express, which wasn't great so decided to leave the damn thing alone.

It does seem to be happening though, an internal investigation for "violation of professional secrecy" to find out who it was that leaked police information about how severely they failed not just on the night but also afterwards:
Kölner Polizei prüft, wer Silvester-Berichte herausgab

 

[Anudder Oik]

Um. Do you think maybe the German context might have something to do with people finding 'nationalism' a problematic word to get enthusiastically behind? More than in some other countries perhaps?

I don't know. But it looks as though the people who did the survey have lumped together the many students who answered that they feel negative with the ones who said they feel nationalistic, as though that were one and the same.

 

[Anudder Oik]

It would appear the Archbishop is more in touch than the derailers who stalked this thread. Eiher that or the wee man's a strasserite himself, be Jesus.


Migration fears not racist - Archbishop of Canterbury - BBC News

He recognised that some people had concerns about the pressure that new arrivals put on communities and services. The archbishop said: "There is a tendency to say 'those people are racist', which is just outrageous, absolutely outrageous.

"Fear is a valid emotion at a time of such colossal crisis.

"This is one of the greatest movements of people in human history. Just enormous. And to be anxious about that is very reasonable."

He said it was "really important" that fears were listened to, and resources put in place to address them.

Thankfully, there haven't been any repetitions of the NY events, however, the right wing press continues to report about the odd gropings at swimming pools in Austria, which are difficult to verify. There is also a supposed report from german police about goings on in the refugee centres, which if true, is very disturbing. Again, only reported from newspapers like the Express.

 

[Pickman's model]

It would appear the Archbishop is more in touch than the derailers who stalked this thread. Eiher that or the wee man's a strasserite himself, be Jesus.

when you start invoking the primate of all england then something's wrong with your argument.

 

[DotCommunist]

he's echoed sentiments many have expressed in different words, for a long long time. Why you think welby the bish is endorsing your powelllism I don't know. Of course the thread wasn't derailed, you just didn't get to push your smelly agenda unchallenged. Oh well, better luck next time eh?

 

[ViolentPanda]

It would appear the Archbishop is more in touch than the derailers who stalked this thread. Eiher that or the wee man's a strasserite himself, be Jesus.


Migration fears not racist - Archbishop of Canterbury - BBC News




Thankfully, there haven't been any repetitions of the NY events, however, the right wing press continues to report about the odd gropings at swimming pools in Austria, which are difficult to verify. There is also a supposed report from german police about goings on in the refugee centres, which if true, is very disturbing. Again, only reported from newspapers like the Express.

Have you been sniffing petrol?
Welby's views are a product of who and what Welby is and has been. Right now, what Welby is concerned about is playing to his ever-diminishing audience in the Anglican communion.
Take a look at the demographics of the Anglican communion some time.

 

[butchersapron]

Who but an eton and oxbridge educated archbishop would have the word on the street i wonder?

 

[ViolentPanda]

he's echoed sentiments many have expressed in different words, for a long long time. Why you think welby the bish is endorsing your powelllism I don't know. Of course the thread wasn't derailed, you just didn't get to push your smelly agenda unchallenged. Oh well, better luck next time eh?

The CofE's "core" congregation are overwhelmingly rural, majority white, and a majority are lower-middle and middle class.
Welby's agenda is clear. He's preaching to the converted, assuring them that their position on immigration is fine by him, and that he indeed shares their concerns. Blatant crawly-bumlicking.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Who but an eton and oxbridge educated archbishop would have the word on the street i wonder?

Well quite!

 

[Anudder Oik]

The CofE's "core" congregation are overwhelmingly rural, majority white, and a majority are lower-middle and middle class.
Welby's agenda is clear. He's preaching to the converted, assuring them that their position on immigration is fine by him, and that he indeed shares their concerns. Blatant crawly-bumlicking.

You make a good point. When I read it, I imagined he was refering to people from deprived areas of society, as they are the ones who will have to live with it. I didn't imagine the rural middle class having any asylum seekers anywhere near them.

Having said that, I agree with the idea that it is ridiculous to label people racist for voicing concerns about the impact and/or consequences of mass immigration. For me the people who ignore the possible consequences of this historical event, and scream blue murder when anyone even dares to mention anything unsavoury, are nothing less than dangerous fanatics who are unwittingly fueling the far right.

 

[laptop]

when you start invoking the primate of all england then something's wrong with your argument.

Indeed.

Too busy to find, let alone read, the actual remarks. As reported by the been, archbish is flat wrong.

Those "fears" CAN BE racist...

==> BBC going down the pan...

 

[sihhi]

It would appear the Archbishop is more in touch than the derailers who stalked this thread. Eiher that or the wee man's a strasserite himself, be Jesus.


Migration fears not racist - Archbishop of Canterbury - BBC News

Thankfully, there haven't been any repetitions of the NY events, however, the right wing press continues to report about the odd gropings at swimming pools in Austria, which are difficult to verify. There is also a supposed report from german police about goings on in the refugee centres, which if true, is very disturbing. Again, only reported from newspapers like the Express.

Fascinating that on a thread about sexual attack and theft on New Years Eve you bring up Welby's comments on immigration in respect of housing and wages. At the same time you accuse other people whose posts you dislike of being derailers.

So to you

1 What is the Archbishop more in touch with?

2 What facts is the Express reporting that another newspaper is not?

More generally, there is still a lack of clarity about the events and subsequent investigations and proceeedings. Here's one update:

Some questions from WSWS's Dietmar Henning

A central role in the spreading of news about alleged mass sexual offences in Cologne was played by the circulation of an internal report by an anonymous federal police officer on January 4. The report referred to “numerous crying and shocked women and girls”, who alleged “sexual assaults by several male refugees and groups.”

According to the report, some suspects allegedly said to the police, “I am a Syrian, you must treat me well! Mrs. Merkel invited me.” The report claimed refugees tore up their refugee papers in front of the police and said, “You can’t do anything to me, I’ll get a new one tomorrow.”

To date it remains unknown who authored this report and for what political or other motives. According to the Süddeutsche Zeitung, the Cologne state prosecutor is investigating the possibility of an internal violation of service secrecy within the police. It is being reviewed how internal police reports found their way into the media.

However, the press is clearly being supplied with material from the police for their anti-immigrant propaganda. The latest example is an incident in Kiel. On Thursday, February 25, the local police reported on the “mass molestation” of three girls by 30 foreigners in a shopping centre. The media accepted this narrative uncritically and raged about a “mob” of Afghans, refugees and foreigners.

Four days later, the accusations proved to be groundless. Eyewitnesses contradict the claims of the police that mass molestations took place. Photos and videos allegedly made of the girls by young men were not discovered.

If anyone is interested in responses from German left here is a set of links (all German) rounded up as of the start of March

2. Update – Aktuelle Diskussion im Überblick (1): Texte zur sexuellen/sexualisierten Gewalt in der Kölner Silvesternacht | Pläne über Pläne

 

[bimble]

That wsws article is basically outright accusing the women who reported assault liars, working in cohoots with the police? Just read it again. Disgusting. i don't see how that is remotely helpful, to anyone.
"Eyewitnesses contradict the claims of the police that mass molestations took place."

 

[andysays]

That wsws article is basically outright accusing the women who reported assault liars, working in cohoots with the police? Just read it again. Disgusting. i don't see how that is remotely helpful, to anyone.
"Eyewitnesses contradict the claims of the police that mass molestations took place."

can you explain how/where/why you think the article is doing this? because I've just read it from start to finish and I don't get that impression at all.

ETA what it suggests to me is that the police have exaggerated, embellished and possibly fabricated details of the various crimes which have been reported to them, including sexual assaults, and this has contributed to the moral panic about hoards of refugees raping western women etc.

And as all along, there are those on this thread who from either carelessness or dishonesty are more than happy to keep that moral panic going...

 

[butchersapron]

That wsws article is basically outright accusing the women who reported assault liars, working in cohoots with the police? Just read it again. Disgusting. i don't see how that is remotely helpful, to anyone.
"Eyewitnesses contradict the claims of the police that mass molestations took place."

What incident does the quote that you've used refer to?

 

[bimble]

er.. "the vastly exaggerated reports of mass sexual assaults."?

What about the statement: "The two complaints relating to rape had not resulted in any suspects being found.."
What point do you think Dietmar is trying to make with that observation?

I really can't understand why anyone would want to defend that article.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Sorry Sihhi, but that article does a severe disservice to old Leon. He'd be realing in his grave if he could see the way that information, and his tradition of clarity of analysis, was being grossly mishandled by his admirerers, nearly 70 years after his death. Trotsky analized events and currents from all angles and did not, as a far as I know, indulge in sweeping what he didn't like under the carpet.

The article is outrageous, It attempt to portray the real victims as liars, all 500 of them, and the perpetrators as victims. The fact the police have fucked up the investigation is used "as evidence" to aquit the perpetrators. It's an article with clear bias from the start.

Some young men from North Africa, who have been left to fend for themselves after travelling alone to Europe and Germany and have virtually no prospect of work or asylum, make ends meet by turning to petty crime.

Poor delinquents, it's not their fault, is it. I've spoken to Morrocan thieves in person, and I can reassure you that the ones I spoke to knew what they were going to be doing before they left Tangier. The article is apology for robbery and abuse of women. Hardly a Marxist or Trotskyist analysis.

Here's some videos of women lying their arses off.

 

[butchersapron]

You're utterly worthless.

 

[Anudder Oik]

You're utterly worthless.

and your contributions (quips really) have less and less syllables every time.

 

[bimble]

butchersapron Do you have an opinion on that article in the wsws?

 

[DotCommunist]

. I've spoken to Morrocan thieves in person, and I can reassure you that the ones I spoke to knew what they were going to be doing before they left Tangier

this is a total lie isn't it? like your intimate knowledge of street gypsy gangs of pickpockets. I don't know how you recon this stuff rings true from you btw. Given you've also demanded a mass jew apology for israels actions in palestine and so on. You've been made.

 

[butchersapron]

and your contributions (quips really) have less and less syllables every time.

Hurrah, you've managed to reply to something that someone said. Pity you couldn't manage it when it counted. Let's have another posh vicars words to smear people though. That's about your level now.

 

[butchersapron]

butchersapron Do you have an opinion on that article in the wsws?

How about you answering my question to you about it earlier first?