Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations
- Thread starter trashpony
- Start date
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
I think misogyny was already everywhere, there is no pure and homogeneous culture with a clear boundary distinguishing it other cultures in this respect, free of patriarchy and misogyny. Every culture I've ever come across is rotten with it (except maybe some lesbian separatist Wiccans in California, but I'm not even sure about them ...
)We don't actually have any accounts from the Cologne attackers themselves, of what they thought they were doing, how it happened, how they explained it to themselves, that might give us any direct insight. Their subjectivity is a blank screen right now, on which many people are projecting all kinds of lurid fantasies.
We have zero evidence that Islam (or blurrier concepts like 'islamic culture') played any part in their thinking when they did these things, but plenty of evidence (in the form of their actions) that misogyny did. I think that 'islamic culture' sort of talk comes from fantasies of cultural/national/racial purity that are highly problematic for all kinds of reasons in globalised 21st century reality. So I see no evidential basis to propose some special Islamic type of misogyny that's fundamentally different to ordinary common-or-garden western misogyny. If a TV documentary comes out where these guys start talking in prison about what they did as some sort of religious collective punishment for Abu Ghraib or something, then I wouldn't be wholly amazed at that idea, but I'm not going to jump to that sort of explanation without some pretty fucking strong evidence because the evidence of misogyny informing their actions is already very obviously present.
We have plenty of common or garden misogynist discourse readily accessible from other men who self-organise to degrade and violate women though, which is why I have kept referring back to the literature on violent rapists and serial killers, plus the online discourse of PUA, Gamergate and other examples, throughout this thread. What is specific to Cologne isn't the misogyny, but level of rage (or something like that) implied by the severity of it, the economic and political context of this particular expression of it (see my previous post) and the tactics and techniques by which it was expressed.
The latter is why I've also been talking a lot about the criminal milieu which it appears most of the attackers originated from, because that seems a plausible source of at least some of the techniques and tactics (and maybe for different reasons, the rage or whatever we want to call that). It would be strange however if there weren't other influences that recombined with those of that criminal milieu and those could, in this wired and connected world, have reached a bunch of multi-ethnic street criminals with people smuggling connections from absolutely anywhere.
Last edited:
I think misogyny was already everywhere, there is no pure and homogeneous culture with a clear boundary distinguishing it other cultures in this respect, free of patriarchy and misogyny. Every culture I've ever come across is rotten with it (except maybe some lesbian separatist Wiccans in California, but I'm not even sure about them ...
We don't actually have any accounts from the Cologne attackers themselves, of what they thought they were doing, how it happened, how they explained it to themselves, that might give us any direct insight.
We have zero evidence that Islam (or blurrier concepts like 'islamic culture') played any part in their thinking when they did these things, but plenty of evidence that misogyny did. I think that sort of talk comes from fantasies of cultural purity that have no basis in globalised, atomised, 21st century reality. So I see no evidential basis to propose some special Islamic type of misogyny that's fundamentally different to ordinary common-or-garden western misogyny.
We have plenty of that misogynist discourse readily accessible from other men who self-organise to degrade and violate women though, which is why I have kept referring back to the literature on violent rapists and serial killers, plus the online discourse of PUA, Gamergate and other examples, throughout this thread.
What is specific here isn't the misogyny, but level of rage (or something like that) implied by the severity of it, the cultural impact of this particular expression of it (see my previous post) and the tactics and techniques by which it was expressed.
The latter is why I've also been talking a lot about the criminal milieu which it appears most of the attackers originated from, because that seems a plausible source of at least some of that stuff. It would be strange however if there weren't other influences that recombined with those of that criminal milieu and those could, in this wired and connected world, have reached a bunch of multi-ethnic street criminals with people smuggling connections from absolutely anywhere.
Apologies but this is total bullshit.
When was the last time that an episode like this occurred within a Western city and why has it not before?
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Are you claiming that 'islamic culture' is the only place that these guys got their misogyny and their tactics and techniques for expressing it from?
If so what evidence besides 'it looks kinda like Tahir square and they might have had beards' do you propose to back that up with?
If so what evidence besides 'it looks kinda like Tahir square and they might have had beards' do you propose to back that up with?
Obediah Marsh
Active Member
Islam has nothing to do with this. Crowds of drunken young men are dangerous for women in all countries and cultures.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
We've seen plenty of evidence presented in this thread of groups of drunk guys sexually assaulting women in Western cities.
What makes 'this stuff' different apart from the scale, the political and economic context (migration flows from trashed states etc) and the cultural / political response?
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Or are you claiming the scale is specifically 'islamic' somehow?
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
New York, central Park, summer of 2000. I put the link to the wiki page on that incident further up the thread.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
don't think your puny evidence will save you, mortal[/diamond]
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
are you from missouri?
andysays
Love and solidarity
interesting that Puerto Rico is apparently 56% Catholic and 33% Protestant. No doubt reports at the time were full of references to the culture of misogyny in Christian cultures, but there's (surprisingly) no reference to it in the article you've linked to. Must have been covered up by those dratted "lefties"...
bimble
floofy
I like this article. It should be obvious I reckon but it needs to be said. Basically, misogyny is the problem, not 'arabs' or Islam etc, but surely that does not mean you have to deny that the problem manifests itself to different degrees and in different ways, making life worse for women in some places than in others.
The Real Roots of Sexism in the Middle East (It's Not Islam, Race, or 'Hate')
also, an interesting idea in this:
"A Western female journalist who spent years in the region, where she endured some of the region's infamous street harassment, told me that she sensed her harassers may have been acting in part out of misery, anger, and their own emasculation. Enduring the daily torments and humiliations of life under the Egyptian or Syrian or Algerian secret police, she suggested, might make an Arab man more likely to reassert his lost manhood by taking it out on women.."
The Real Roots of Sexism in the Middle East (It's Not Islam, Race, or 'Hate')
also, an interesting idea in this:
"A Western female journalist who spent years in the region, where she endured some of the region's infamous street harassment, told me that she sensed her harassers may have been acting in part out of misery, anger, and their own emasculation. Enduring the daily torments and humiliations of life under the Egyptian or Syrian or Algerian secret police, she suggested, might make an Arab man more likely to reassert his lost manhood by taking it out on women.."
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
As a Spanish colony, it would have a strong influence from Mediterranean machismo as well. Question: are there underlying similarities, affinities, ebtween the machismo and misogyny of the Catholic northern Mediterranean world, and the Muslim southern Med?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
It happens in Munich during the Oktoberfest rather too frequently.
Sexual assault 'on the rise at Oktoberfest'
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes, both found predominantly among the men of the mediterranean littoral.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Especially now that H. Kissinger has signed a non-aggression pact with Latveria.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
The Munich Oktoberfest is attended by more than 5 million people, mostly pissed, over 2 weeks.
It can't be compared to the incidents in Cologne.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
but it is. regularly.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Aye, but it shouldn't be.
It's like taking the combined populations of Birmingham, Paris, and Rome, getting them pissed for a fortnight, then using the resulting crime stats to try to prove a point.
Last edited:
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
One possible (possible) point of comparison between Oktoberfest and NYE in Koln: do the peelers in Munich taking sexual harassment/assault at Oktoberfest seriously, or do they exhibit the kind of indifference that seems to have been at work in Koln six weeks ago?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
/
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
too late darlin
bimble
floofy
What if colonialism both old and current has a lot to do with the most extreme sorts of misogyny. Like from that article above ;
"Some of the most important architects of institutionalized Arab misogyny weren't actually Arab. They were Turkish -- or, as they called themselves at the time, Ottoman -- British, and French. These foreigners ruled Arabs for centuries, twisting the cultures to accommodate their dominance. One of their favorite tricks was to buy the submission of men by offering them absolute power over women. The foreign overlords ruled the public sphere, local men ruled the private sphere, and women got nothing; academic Deniz Kandiyoti called this the "patriarchal bargain." Colonial powers employed it in the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, and in South Asia, promoting misogynist ideas and misogynist men who might have otherwise stayed on the margins, slowly but surely ingraining these ideas into the societies..'
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
There's an interesting and relevant article by the SOAS prof your source is citing here:
The fateful marriage: political violence and violence against women
The fateful marriage: political violence and violence against women
bimble
floofy
excellent. especially relevant is the bit under the heading 'is there a “new” violence against women?', where she ties cologne in with a few other examples of attacks by groups of strangers in public places, like the horrific Delhi story that i kept bringing up a few hundred pages ago.
She's not pushing any one size fits all explanation but points out how 'neither the invocation of universal misogyny nor the stigmatisation of particular groups is likely to be helpful without a context-specific grounding of events and reactions to them. '
Similar threads
