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Hundreds of Post Office workers ‘vindicated’ by High Court ruling over faulty Post Office IT system

alex_ said:
It’s quite a jump from “supplier defending their product” to “let’s send the users to jail”.

The post office were the prosecuting body and should have been hugely more sceptical about their fundamental hypothesis which appears to be “we’ve done a huge IT systems change and now lots of our staff are stealing from us so we should send them to prison”
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This is the bit that appals me. Someone, and probably lots of someones, must have been thinking "hmm, new system, and all of a sudden we have an apparent massive fraud problem...could these be linked?"

Chances are that a lot of the devs and test people probably were thinking that, but the minute it got upstairs, that was discounted. Especially if the supplier was happy to ignore any dissenting voices, and the PO was happy to take the supplier's word at face value.

I'd like to think that this would be a salutary tale that caused a lot more people to be a lot more cautious about taking things on trust, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that they aren't.
 
Cunts ! !

Fukyoutoo realised there would be problems with the system because they made sure there could be remote access to terminals, which raises all kinds of questions in of itself, that they would want remote access for expediency is not a surprise but what restrictions (if any) were placed on this access ? What clearance (if any) did the Fukyoutoo employees have to have in order to be allowed that access ? What logging (if any) of these remote transactions was recorded ? I guess the original intention behind remote access was user support, they anticipated people having difficulties with it and then needing online training and support which is perfectly acceptable, provided there were appropriate guidelines. I guess when it became clear the system was a bag of bollocks user support must have found themselves dealing with huge amounts of money rather than the paltry amounts predicted.

But still, so many questions, as others have said, why try and pretend the system worked when it didn't ? Why not fess up immediately and save everyone lots of grief - I wonder who the invisible people are behind all this.

If a private business tried to operate with such obviously fucked accounts it wouldn't be allowed to do business any more.

How, can Vennells look herself in the face while still clutching her CBE ? FFS why hasn't she been stripped of it ? I absolutely get that this scandal was already well under way when she joined the post office but still !

So many questions ! ! ! I guess Fukyoutoo's support staff must have had a fucking awful time of it as well, trying to make accounts balance when the software was fucked and being told to stop complaining.

Gosh, too cross to be coherent ! CUNTS ! !
 
izz said:
Cunts ! !

Fukyoutoo realised there would be problems with the system because they made sure there could be remote access to terminals, which raises all kinds of questions in of itself, that they would want remote access for expediency is not a surprise but what restrictions (if any) were placed on this access ? What clearance (if any) did the Fukyoutoo employees have to have in order to be allowed that access ? What logging (if any) of these remote transactions was recorded ? I guess the original intention behind remote access was user support, they anticipated people having difficulties with it and then needing online training and support which is perfectly acceptable, provided there were appropriate guidelines. I guess when it became clear the system was a bag of bollocks user support must have found themselves dealing with huge amounts of money rather than the paltry amounts predicted.

But still, so many questions, as others have said, why try and pretend the system worked when it didn't ? Why not fess up immediately and save everyone lots of grief - I wonder who the invisible people are behind all this.

If a private business tried to operate with such obviously fucked accounts it wouldn't be allowed to do business any more.

How, can Vennells look herself in the face while still clutching her CBE ? FFS why hasn't she been stripped of it ? I absolutely get that this scandal was already well under way when she joined the post office but still !

So many questions ! ! ! I guess Fukyoutoo's support staff must have had a fucking awful time of it as well, trying to make accounts balance when the software was fucked and being told to stop complaining.

Gosh, too cross to be coherent ! CUNTS ! !
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The utterly vile Vennels is also a lay preacher.
 
izz said:
How, can Vennells look herself in the face while still clutching her CBE ? FFS why hasn't she been stripped of it ? I absolutely get that this scandal was already well under way when she joined the post office but still !
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Petition to strip Vennells of her CBE.

you.38degrees.org.uk

Post Office Scandal: Strip Paula Vennells of her CBE

I just signed the petition calling on Paula Vennells, the former CEO of the Post Office to be stripped of her CBE. Will you sign too?
you.38degrees.org.uk you.38degrees.org.uk
 
Chz said:
Oh certainly, but Fujitsu knew the product was defective at the time and covered it up for as long as they could.
The almost unbelievable part is that once they did finally tell the PO the software was broken, the two of them decided that the best course of action was to then be partners in covering it up. The PO has a strange legal position in UK law due to being the PO, but what Fujitsu did was absolutely a criminal act and basically nothing ever came of it. I've never let their sales people in the door since 2008 or so when it finally leaked out; I tell them "we don't work with criminals" and show them the door.

ETA: It's 15 years later, and the anger I still manage to muster up over it is considerable.
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It is infuriating, and you know what is worse? they are still getting work in spite of this fiasco; Literally today the reg reported the UK's Environment Agency has awarded Fujitsu a £2 million contract extension to run the flood warning system after apparent delays to finding a replacement supplier (Fujitsu wins Environment Agency flood contract extension).
 
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As many of you know, I worked for HMRC, starting on the New Tax Credits (NTC) system.

The software was fucked from day one, and large discrepancies in individual accounts arose. In a percentage of cases I (I was an expert and mentor) could not find a reason for these overpayments.

The office went from NTC to Debt Management, and I was able to 'rectify' some of the cases.*

The supplier of the (still) fucked software was Fujitsu.

*I noticed we were demanding payment for debts over six years old, where this was the first notification to the client.

I trawled the regulations and guidance to see if there was legislation for this, there wasn't. So... I spoke to my manager, no joy. I spoke to his manager, no joy. I spoke to the site lead, no joy. When I say spoke, this was backed up with an E-mail, and E-mails requesting an update.

I wrote to my MP outlining the situation. Six weeks after writing to my MP, we opened our guidance one morning to find this.

DEBTS OVER SIX YEARS OLD WHERE THERE HAS BEEN CONTACT ONLY AFTER SIX YEARS HAVE PASSED CANNOT BE ENFORCED. CLIENTS MAY BE ASKED TO REPAY, BUT CANNOT BE COMPELLED TO DO SO.

It could of course be a complete coincidence...
 
Chz said:
Oh certainly, but Fujitsu knew the product was defective at the time and covered it up for as long as they could.
The almost unbelievable part is that once they did finally tell the PO the software was broken, the two of them decided that the best course of action was to then be partners in covering it up. The PO has a strange legal position in UK law due to being the PO, but what Fujitsu did was absolutely a criminal act and basically nothing ever came of it. I've never let their sales people in the door since 2008 or so when it finally leaked out; I tell them "we don't work with criminals" and show them the door.

ETA: It's 15 years later, and the anger I still manage to muster up over it is considerable.
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You have to wonder just how much protection/indemnification Fujitsu have from the Government/PO as part of their various (no, numerous ie 20+) contracts?

Fujitsu and before them ICL have been the big gobbling turkey of UK public IT contracts for a long time now - possibly right back to when ICL were originally formed (by Tony Benn IIRC?) out of a shotgun marriage of a number of smaller public IT contractors.

There is a much wider issue about how public/government contracts are awarded/managed to be investigated here IMO. The same few names seem to come floating back up time and time again. :(
 
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Whereas Fukyoutoo are definitely one of the major villains in this instance, every software producer will have had issues of this nature (although many do decent testing so tend to stop the more major errors before operational deployment) but like everything, it's how it's dealt with that's important. I guess other suppliers and their clients manage to act better.
 
WWWeed said:
It is infuriating, and you know what is worse? they are still getting work in spite of this fiasco; Literally today the reg reported the UK's Environment Agency has awarded Fujitsu a £2 million contract extension to run the flood warning system after apparent delays to finding a replacement supplier (Fujitsu wins Environment Agency flood contract extension).
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Didn't they recently get awarded a big part of the military tactical communications system contract, as part of a consortium with Thales and someone else?

Another thing I vaguely remember about the completion of the takeover of ICL by Fujitsu is that on doing so, Fujitsu tied-down the hardware supply operation in a way that had never been so tight before. Previously, ICL's model had been to work with a number of contractors (incl Fujitsu) for the delivery of physical systems and hardware support.
 
Towards the end of the television drama, it was mentioned that senior post directors knew of the disrepencies including problems with Horizon yet they were defending everything in court, costing both sides millions and millions of pounds.
To date, most if not all those effected have had very little compensation, certainly not what they are due
What a good christian Paula Vennells is!
😡
 
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A supplier may try to get away with murder but it is also the responsibility of the client to prevent it, in the public sector, there aren't as many good contract lawyers so suppliers take the piss.

Sorry, still to angry to be coherent 😀
 
My (hyper) local news website have run a piece about the Horizon scandal and the local link involving neighbouring vermin MP Paul Scully who was the PO minister who could finally hold out no longer and established the statutory enquiry.

Scully appears keen to cast himself well as the minister that finally did what was inevitable, but the claims of an obvious psychopath crying for hours over the drama lacked credibility.

Piece included this useful, (possibly nicked) graphic:

1704388722142.png
 
brogdale said:
My (hyper) local news website have run a piece about the Horizon scandal and the local link involving neighbouring vermin MP Paul Scully who was the PO minister who could finally hold out no longer and established the statutory enquiry.

Scully appears keen to cast himself well as the minister that finally did what was inevitable, but the claims of an obvious psychopath crying for hours over the drama lacked credibility.

Piece included this useful, (possibly nicked) graphic:

View attachment 407040
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That is of course ignoring the "human" stories, the suicides, the sub poster masters who have died and will not see justice, the family break ups, the bullying etc.
 
They were saying the other week that the PO had halved the money they had put aside for compensation as some people wouldn't put in a claim.

The PO knows full well who they sacked / prosecuted so they ought to make a substantial compensation payment to all of them for starters. :mad:
 
Maggot said:
Petition to strip Vennells of her CBE.

you.38degrees.org.uk

Post Office Scandal: Strip Paula Vennells of her CBE

I just signed the petition calling on Paula Vennells, the former CEO of the Post Office to be stripped of her CBE. Will you sign too?
you.38degrees.org.uk you.38degrees.org.uk
Click to expand...
Whilst this is kind of a nice gesture in and of itself, the actual level of wrongdoing here and the damage done to people's lives warrants somewhat more of a hefty response and not just on her shoulders as there are obviously other people responsible here (I too signed this btw).
 
Sasaferrato said:
As many of you know, I worked for HMRC, starting on the New Tax Credits (NTC) system.

The software was fucked from day one, and large discrepancies in individual accounts arose. In a percentage of cases I (I was an expert and mentor) could not find a reason for these overpayments.

The office went from NTC to Debt Management, and I was able to 'rectify' some of the cases.*

The supplier of the (still) fucked software was Fujitsu.

*I noticed we were demanding payment for debts over six years old, where this was the first notification to the client.

I trawled the regulations and guidance to see if there was legislation for this, there wasn't. So... I spoke to my manager, no joy. I spoke to his manager, no joy. I spoke to the site lead, no joy. When I say spoke, this was backed up with an E-mail, and E-mails requesting an update.

I wrote to my MP outlining the situation. Six weeks after writing to my MP, we opened our guidance one morning to find this.

DEBTS OVER SIX YEARS OLD WHERE THERE HAS BEEN CONTACT ONLY AFTER SIX YEARS HAVE PASSED CANNOT BE ENFORCED. CLIENTS MAY BE ASKED TO REPAY, BUT CANNOT BE COMPELLED TO DO SO.

It could of course be a complete coincidence...
Click to expand...

I know someone else with a similar story about working for HMRC with tax credits stuff. It was years ago when they told me but I remember how visceral it was, the feeling that something was really wrong but they didn't know what was causing it. In the end they just stopped turning up to work IIRC
 
hash tag said:
That is of course ignoring the "human" stories, the suicides, the sub poster masters who have died and will not see justice, the family break ups, the bullying etc.
Click to expand...

Not exactly - I'd say punitive damages covers that, when it's talking about numbers alone. No money can ever replace those lost years or lost people, but money would help their heirs cope better with the shitshow the Post Office and Fujitsu created.

What I don't get is that it seems to be that they just didn't want to admit they were wrong. There was no big payday involved for most of them, especially early on. I hate people who scam people for money and destroy their lives, but I can at leas understand it - the scammer gets something out of it.

Here there were huge numbers of people working together to send innocent people to jail or bankruptcy court (or hospital, or the grave) for no fucking reason. A bit of a pay rise. Holding onto their job even though they could still have walked into another one that pays the same. "Saving face," which is important for them, but not for little people.

Bates was offered an OBE. From the Mirror:

On account of his decades of tireless campaigning, heroic Alan was recommended for an OBE, but ultimately decided to turn down the honour due to his frustrations over ex-Post Office boss Paula Vennells becoming a Commander of the Order of the British Empire back in 2019.

I can see why he'd consider it - it's a bit of publicity and an acknowledgment that he was in the right - but it was also probably, on the part of some people at least, seen as "if we give him this trinket, then he'll become Establishment, and shut up."

(I know that being recommended doesn't mean you'll necessarily get it, but you also can't just send in random names).
 
Just watched the final episode of the TV drama. There were may parts of the drama that rang bells with me as an ex-PO employee. The sheer mendacity of the senior management, their incompetence but also that there were definitely others above them in government who had a controlling interest in deciding to pursue things and spin it out for so long. Their big error was that they believed that Venalls and Angela VDB (the woman who has had more job titles than Alan had hot dinners - nice trueism) were the correct people to lead the attack for them.
I just hope that the inquiry really highlights all the senior people who knew what, where when and how and that recommendations are made that they are brought to justice.
 
Just a reminder this inquiry was due to end in Dec 2022. The reason it is dragging on is because the Post Office is deliberately delaying the release of a lot of documents. Two key witnesses, Fujitsu IT executive Gareth Jenkins and the Post Office's senior criminal lawyer Jarnail Singh, are still being delayed by the PO who are only disclosing documents when and after key witnesses are due to speak.

This is what the PO says on it's homepage

Post Office shares fully the aims of the Inquiry and is committed to transparently assisting its work.

We've waited for Jenkins since July. He's also being 'investigated' for perjury by the police. He's also asked for immunity from prosecution if he does give evidence.
 
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planetgeli said:
Just a reminder this inquiry was due to end in Dec 2022. The reason it is dragging on is because the Post Office is deliberately delaying the release of a lot of documents. Two key witnesses, Fujitsu IT executive Gareth Jenkins and the Post Office's senior criminal lawyer Jarnail Singh, are still being delayed by the PO who are only disclosing documents when and after key witnesses are due to speak.

This is what the PO that says on it's homepage

Post Office shares fully the aims of the Inquiry and is committed to transparently assisting its work.

We've waited for Jenkins since July. He's also being 'investigated' for perjury by the police. He's also asked for immunity from prosecution if he does give evidence.
Click to expand...

Suspect delaying the finish of the inquiry until after the tv show will with hindsight prove to be an error.

( edit - post office senior management being fucking useless is not a new thing )
 
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Mr Bates must be pretty chuffed to have Toby Jones playing him. He brings an enormous sense of justice to the role.

A few thoughts on the scandal.

Journalism was key in the uncovering of this or rather delayed reporting. It took Computer Weekly 5yrs to follow up Bates' first letter ! Even then it was ages before other media sought to dig into it spurred on by Private Eye perhaps.

In the first episode there's a poor guy defending himself who goes bankrupt. The judge pronounces the computer system was working. A clever barrister would've asked the prosecution to prove this.
The opposite of this was the Betfred winning case where the company couldn't prove the software had gone wrong.

There's an unusual owner / client relationship in the very nature of Post Offices and this definitely contributed to the delay in fault resolution. The postmasters aren't in the same office as each other and weren't clients of a bank. The system could never have behaved so badly in a banking environment and the system development so poorly planned.
 
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