Hundreds of Post Office workers ‘vindicated’ by High Court ruling over faulty Post Office IT system

[Cribynkle]

I worked on the Horizon Helpdesk from the start. This whole shit show doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Those poor people whose lives have been destroyed by a system and support which was completely unfit for purpose

 

[stdP]

News from El Reg here saying that the govt has just copped to a statuatory inquiry, supposedly with slightly more in the way of teeth although my cynical spidey senses still think there'll be whitewashing simply because of all the prevarication that's already taken place.

Parliament demands to know the score with Fujitsu as Post Office Horizon scandal gets inquiry with legal teeth

'Government's got to take responsibility for this,' rages opposition MP

www.theregister.com

MPs listening were not convinced. Darren Jones, Labour MP for Bristol North West, asked: "We welcome the statement today. However, if I've understood it correctly, the terms of reference are still being decided by ministers, and not by the independent chair, Sir Wyn Williams. Why?"

The minister said Williams had asked for extra powers, though his inquiry "wouldn't explore matters of substantive criminal law."

As the Post Office is wholly owned by government, many inside and outside Parliament have asked what the government did to rein in the hundreds of false prosecutions carried out by internal Post Office investigators aided and abetted by Japan-headquartered IT contractor Fujitsu. A civil claim for damages was settled by the Post Office in December 2019, with most of the money going to lawyers.

Scully prevaricated, murmuring: "He raises a pertinent point about Fujitsu. It's for the Post Office… to work out the terms of compensation and to build an issue around that. But I'm sure that [the subpostmasters] will hear what he said and absolutely raise that incredibly prevalent point, as they – as they seek redress."

However, the minister appeared to concede later that anyone from the Post Office or Fujitsu who was found guilty of crimes over the scandal could be punished by being made to pay compensation directly to their victims: "But we'll continue to look at what we can do to get full and fair settlement of compensation for postmasters in the different branches, of the stages of – of the civil cases and indeed the criminal cases."

 

[cupid_stunt]

Just put Sky News on, live from the Commons with an announcement that everyone convicted will get £100k compensation.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Just put Sky News on, live from the Commons with an announcement that everyone convicted will get £100k compensation.

Private Eye were one of the drivers of this, they have been highlighting the injustice for a long time.

 

[stdP]

Sadly, the post office have said they can't afford to pay the compensation though, so the compensation will be being paid for by the taxpayer.

Post Office scandal: Government to foot bill for postmasters' compensation

A minister says wronged postmasters should be compensated "fairly and swiftly".

www.bbc.com

Privatise the profits, socialise the losses...

 

[cupid_stunt]

Sadly, the post office have said they can't afford to pay the compensation though, so the compensation will be being paid for by the taxpayer.

Post Office scandal: Government to foot bill for postmasters' compensation

A minister says wronged postmasters should be compensated "fairly and swiftly".

www.bbc.com

Privatise the profits, socialise the losses...

Not surprising, as it's still government owned.

 

[stdP]

Not surprising, as it's still government owned.

Not surprising at all, but there still seems to be no appetite for silver platters holding craniums on this, especially the brass snakes like Vennells who pushed on with prosecutions despite knowing the data was wrong.

From the wiki page:

In May 2021 the British Computer Society (the official body for IT professionals in the UK) called for reconsideration of courts' default presumption that computer data is correct.

This would be one of the more advantageous changes to come out of this whole shitshow. It's certainly been a bugbear of mine that questions about the integrity of records aren't usually considered a reasonable doubt.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Not surprising at all, but there still seems to be no appetite for silver platters holding craniums on this, especially the brass snakes like Vennells who pushed on with prosecutions despite knowing the data was wrong.

From the wiki page:


This would be one of the more advantageous changes to come out of this whole shitshow. It's certainly been a bugbear of mine that questions about the integrity of records aren't usually considered a reasonable doubt.

The company who supplied the software were binned by HMRC as the software didn't work properly.

 

[stdP]

The company who supplied the software were binned by HMRC as the software didn't work properly.

Fujitsu UK have something of a reputation for this already (if you remember the disastrous NHS IT project of the early 2000s, aka NHSPfIT, you'll be aware of their failure there too, and they later sued the NHS for £700m), but they still keep being awarded contracts.

When The Register started reporting on the Horizon debacle, it was always within the context of "Here's some of Fujitsu UK's previous howlers so here's why we think the postmasters probably aren't criminals".

 

[Sue]

Fujitsu UK have something of a reputation for this already (if you remember the disastrous NHS IT project of the early 2000s, aka NHSPfIT, you'll be aware of their failure there too, and they later sued the NHS for £700m), but they still keep being awarded contracts.

When The Register started reporting on the Horizon debacle, it was always within the context of "Here's some of Fujitsu UK's previous howlers so here's why we think the postmasters probably aren't criminals".

TBF loads of companies have fucked up NHS IT projects at one time or another.

 

[Sasaferrato]

TBF loads of companies have fucked up NHS IT projects at one time or another.

I think that we need to establish a national computer department, a government department staffed by competent people, pay them what they could earn in the private sector.

We might then have a chance of creating large projects that actually work.

 

[cupid_stunt]

... a government department staffed by competent people...

That would be a novelty.

 

[Sue]

I think that we need to establish a national computer department, a government department staffed by competent people, pay them what they could earn in the private sector.

We might then have a chance of creating large projects that actually work.

Oh I agree but the money thing would be a problem -- as you say, people can earn way more in the private sector and I suspect a lot of people would be outraged if the public sector started matching private sector IT salaries. And a lot of people in IT (rightly or wrongly) want to work somewhere that's seen as a bit cool and sexy. Which isn't really Government/the Civil Service.

Of course most companies fuck up big IT projects, it's just the public sector ones tend to be bigger and a lot, lot more visible.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Oh I agree but the money thing would be a problem -- as you say, people can earn way more in the private sector and I suspect a lot of people would be outraged if the public sector started matching private sector IT salaries. And a lot of people in IT (rightly or wrongly) want to work somewhere that's seen as a bit cool and sexy. Which isn't really Government/the Civil Service.

Of course most companies fuck up big IT projects, it's just the public sector ones tend to be bigger and a lot, lot more visible.

I get a feeling that the fuckups are caused by the fact that the decisions, with regard to the function of the software, are made far away from the users.

If for any bit of software, you went to the people who were operating the software, they would tell you what needs to be there for it to work.

When I did my first Tax Credits renewal, I put in all the correct info. Instead of processing, it went to store, i.e. to be worked and processed manually, because there is a problem. That was a couple with one income.

Next one, single person, processed. Next one, couple with two incomes, processed. Next one,. couple, one income, stored.

After about a week, and a massive (20,000) number of cases stored, an edict came from on high that in the case of couple, one income, 1p was to be put in as income rather than £0.00. We did, and the renewals automatically processed. That was 19 years ago, and it is still the same today.

Fuck knows how much the software providers were paid, but millions is a usual figure.

 

[equationgirl]

In the case of the software used by various companies for assessing those on disability and sickness benefits, the license to the software was a ridiculous number of millions of pounds. ATOS literally made a killing with it (many killings in fact).

 

[alex_]

Billion in potential compensation.

UK taxpayers to pay former Post Office workers up to £1bn compensation

Post Office says it can’t afford bill owed to those wrongly convicted of theft due to defective Horizon IT system

www.theguardian.com

Holy shit

 

[existentialist]

Billion in potential compensation.

UK taxpayers to pay former Post Office workers up to £1bn compensation

Post Office says it can’t afford bill owed to those wrongly convicted of theft due to defective Horizon IT system

www.theguardian.com

Holy shit

Privatising the profits, nationalising the risk...

 

[Pickman's model]

Privatising the profits, nationalising the risk...

Surprised government apparently not suing Fujitsu whose faulty software played such a part in the scandal.

 

[existentialist]

Surprised government apparently not suing Fujitsu whose faulty software played such a part in the scandal.

That might risk revealing backhanders...

 

[Pickman's model]

That might risk revealing backhanders...

Ah but 2000-2010 labour in power. And labour in power for three years prior. So would expect procurement took place under labour.

 

[alex_]

That might risk revealing backhanders...

More like criminal level of incompetence, dozens of people in the post office knew there were issues

 

[Diamond]

Billion in potential compensation.

UK taxpayers to pay former Post Office workers up to £1bn compensation

Post Office says it can’t afford bill owed to those wrongly convicted of theft due to defective Horizon IT system

www.theguardian.com

Holy shit

Quite right too - it's worthwhile to imagine what this has been like from the point of view of one of the postmasters. They are usually older people of some social standing due to their job (particularly in rural areas). Up until the introduction of the new system, these were individuals, generally speaking, of the utmost integrity and professionalism and will have enjoyed some kind of good reputation. All destroyed by a duff system that ends up sending a large number of them to jail.

For no reason at all. It boggles the mind, frankly, and I will be amazed if we don't see more of this type of issue over time - professionalism and rigour in tech can be in surprisingly short supply.

 

[Carvaged]

If anyone fancies a read about the unendingly hideous fiasco that is government software procurement and implementation, this book (a few years old, but still relevant) makes for an eye-opening read:

The Blunders of Our Governments | Anthony King,Ivor Crewe | 9781780744056

The Blunders of Our Governments by Anthony King,Ivor Crewe | 9781780744056, Buy new & second-hand (used) books online with Free UK Delivery at AwesomeBooks.com

www.awesomebooks.com

Not that PLCs are often much better or anything, but it's particularly relevant for how the Post Office fucked up.

 

[alex_]

If anyone fancies a read about the unendingly hideous fiasco that is government software procurement and implementation, this book (a few years old, but still relevant) makes for an eye-opening read:

The Blunders of Our Governments | Anthony King,Ivor Crewe | 9781780744056

The Blunders of Our Governments by Anthony King,Ivor Crewe | 9781780744056, Buy new & second-hand (used) books online with Free UK Delivery at AwesomeBooks.com

www.awesomebooks.com

Not that PLCs are often much better or anything, but it's particularly relevant for how the Post Office fucked up.

The private eye report on this is good too Special Report: Justice Lost In The Post

This is - wtf ?

“the Horizon IT system had an unpromising start. It had been set up to create a swipe card system for payment of pensions and benefits from Post Office branch counters….

( the project goes wrong )

…the Post Office decided to use the system to transform its paper-based branch accounting into an electronic system covering the full range of Post Office services.”

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

So the inquiry is kicking off. The stories of these poor sods are utterly heart wrenching. And when you look at the people who caused this it makes blood boil...


PAULA VENNELLS, 62

Network director from 2007, managing director in 2010 and chief executive from 2012 to 2019 on £4.9million. The part-time Anglican priest was in charge during the IT disaster. Pursued staff in a £90million court case. Urged to return CBE for 'services to the PO and charity'.



ALAN COOK

Also a CBE. Managing director from 2006 to 2010, when the firm prosecuted some 200 staff. Since leaving he has played a key role in a home repossessions scandal in Ireland, was chairman of Highways England as smart motorways were developed and led a failed attempt to sell the insurer LV to private equity.


ALICE PERKINS, 72

Wife of ex-Labour home secretary Jack Straw and £100,000-a-year PO chairman from 2011 until 2015, when some 120 postmasters were prosecuted. She is accused of failing to deal with the scandal.


DAME MOYA GREENE, 67

Earned £11.5million as chief executive of Royal Mail from 2010 to 2018. Accepted assurances that Post Office court cases were above board.



These people should be in prison, their assets sequestered to go towards the compo that you and I are expected to shell out for their fraudulent behaviour. And the two with CBE's, one for services to the fucking Post Office, well fuck that






Seema Misra lives near me, she writes:

After years of being fobbed off and lied to, at long last I – and so many others – might finally get the answers we've been denied for decades.

I am one of those betrayed and scapegoated subpostmasters due to give evidence at the long-awaited Post Office inquiry. Yet I'm dreading having to go through my ordeal all over again.

As much as my lawyer might remind me I'm not attending as a criminal, and that my conviction for fraud and false accounting has been overturned, the trauma I carry means I'm still serving a lifetime sentence.

Going back as a witness reminds me of when I walked into my trial at Guildford Crown Court in November 2010 – and wasn't allowed out of the same door. Instead I was sent straight to prison.

I was found guilty of theft and false accounting after £74,609 disappeared from the post office accounts in West Byfleet, Surrey, where I was a subpostmistress.

Pregnant, terrified and with a ten-year-old son at home, I was led off in handcuffs and served four of my 15 month sentence. I gave birth two months after my release.

In the eyes of the law I remained a criminal until my conviction was finally overturned at London's High Court last April, by which time my husband Davinder and I had lost our livelihood and had our second home confiscated to pay off the money we had allegedly stolen.

I'd been called a thief by strangers on the street and Davinder attacked because he was my husband.

Forced to move to escape the harassment and unable to work thanks to my 'criminal' record, I was too ashamed to even tell my son's friends' parents my surname, in case they Googled me and discovered my conviction.

I was housebound with anxiety, my family financially crippled. And all this time, the executives who helped cover up the wrongdoing against me and hundreds of others were left to enjoy big salaries and enviable lifestyles.

So yes, I'm angry.

After all this time, nobody has been held accountable.

 

[Badgers]

The former chief executive of the Post Office has quit her roles on the boards of Morrisons and Dunelm following the IT scandal which led to the wrongful convictions of former postmasters.

Morrisons announced Paula Vennells would leave after serving as a non-executive director since 2016.

She is relinquishing her non-executive position at home furnishing retailer Dunelm with immediate effect.

She is also stopping her duties as an ordained Church of England minister.

Post office scandal: Ex-boss quits director jobs after scandal

Paula Vennells steps down from Dunelm and Morrisons after an IT scandal which saw workers wrongfully convicted.

www.bbc.co.uk

Vennells (CBE) earnt nearly £750k per annum...

Got a £388k bonus...

Had just £36k deducted as a result of the scandal.

 

[alex_]

Post office scandal: Ex-boss quits director jobs after scandal

Paula Vennells steps down from Dunelm and Morrisons after an IT scandal which saw workers wrongfully convicted.

www.bbc.co.uk

Vennells (CBE) earnt nearly £750k per annum...

Got a £388k bonus...

Had just £36k deducted as a result of the scandal.

Cor - I wonder what the bonus would be if you didn’t cause .5 billion of compensation to be paid by the government because the post office can’t afford to pay the compensation for all of your perversions of justice.

 

[BristolEcho]

Another article here. The fact some died with it still hanging over them.....

BBC News - 'The Post Office interrogated me for hours'

'The Post Office interrogated me for hours'

There are calls to ban the Post Office from bringing private prosecutions following the Horizon IT scandal.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[two sheds]

Private Eye ran a story an issue or two ago with a statement by one of the Postmasters. They said they saw a Fujitsu employee who was sat at a terminal access another Post Office branch account and change figures in it (as I recall he withdraw money). They'd specifically been told that this was impossible. They asked whether he was going to change it back and he said 'yes' but they never found out whether he did.

 

[Diamond]

bump

I attended a talk by Richard Moorhead, a legal prof who specialises in professional ethics, last week - he's been very close to all the litigation and the inquiry (it's basically his area - lawyers behaving badly).

It was quite the eye-opener. Long story short - the lawyers here behaved appallingly. Just mind-blowing stuff.

When the inquiry comes out, if it's properly reported, it will severely damage the reputation of lawyers in this country.

This is more or less the talk he gave, I think: