HS2 high-speed London-Birmingham route rail project - discussion

[ViolentPanda]

I accept this is all about capacity but it will still have a significant impact on ancient woodlands. These are under threat all over the UK. HS2 cannot be made an exception. Woodland trust view

If you've ever spent a day watching countryside being ripped up for a road you would think twice. I'll never forget that day in Newbury.....

Isn't this really about the failure of the WCML upgrade. Possibly a result of privatisation?

Difference between a primary road and an electrified rail-line is that the road is a source of moderate ongoing pollution, the rail-line isn't.

I share your instinctive distaste for what the rail-line will do to the landscape, but set against what a road would do, or the re-assertion of air-travels' grip on internal "long-distance" travel might do, it's by far the cleanest and the least damaging proposition out of those options.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Is the figure of 33bn the expected total cost after potential returns have been taken into account or is it just the total upfront building cost?

If it is the latter, surely it is a meaningless figure.

 

[Crispy]

Is the figure of 33bn the expected total cost after potential returns have been taken into account or is it just the total upfront building cost?

If it is the latter, surely it is a meaningless figure.

The latter. It's also the projected full network cost, so is spread over at least 15 years.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The latter. It's also the projected full network cost, so is spread over at least 15 years.

So it's like talking about the cost of building social housing without discussing the rents tenants will pay, or building the Severn Barrage without discussing the electricity people will buy from it?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

If you've ever spent a day watching countryside being ripped up for a road you would think twice. I'll never forget that day in Newbury.....

Omelette, eggs, etc.

(and I was one of the people building tunnels to try and stop the M6 toll btw...)

 

[Crispy]

So it's like talking about the cost of building social housing without discussing the rents tenants will pay, or building the Severn Barrage without discussing the electricity people will buy from it?

Yes. The economic case is made in this report: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publicatio...update/hs2-economic-case-appraisal-update.pdf
I haven't read it yet.

 

[Riklet]

I took various trains when back in the UK over Christmas, between England/Wales n also up to Scotland and back.

Every single fucking train was delayed by at least a little bit of time, and one was cancelled completely for some vague reason. Fucking bullshit!

How can they be piping all this money into high speed train lines to save 25 minutes of some suit idiot's time, when the normal trains n train lines clearly need the cash. Grrr

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

How can they be piping all this money into high speed train lines to save 25 minutes of some suit idiot's time, when the normal trains n train lines clearly need the cash. Grrr

Arrrrrrrgh.

This line will help the others. That's the fucking point

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You haven't read the thread, have you Riklet?

 

[rover07]

To increase line capacity they should get rid of all these private companies and have one single coordinated system. Get rid of 1st class too.

 

[Riklet]

You haven't read the thread, have you Riklet?

Nah i just wanted a daily mail comments esque moan really.

But i might do now. So the high speed line is actually going to miraculously transform things?

 

[editor]

Motorways make an endless noise. Day and night. It's ruined what was the tranquil spaces in north Cardiff and Cefn Onn Park constantly reverberates to the sound of cars and lorries thundering by. Even busy railway lines are far less intrusive.

 

[Crispy]

To increase line capacity they should get rid of all these private companies and have one single coordinated system.

Privatisation may be inefficient in many ways, but timetabling is not one of them. Where capacity is tight, the timetables are right up at the limits.

I'm in two minds about 1st class. The high price effectively subsidise fares for the rest of us. Abolishing 1st class train seats would have to be done alongside a general redistribution of wealth among the population. So come the revolution, I'm happy to see it go.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Motorways make an endless noise. Day and night. It's ruined what was the tranquil spaces in north Cardiff and Cefn Onn Park constantly reverberates to the sound of cars and lorries thundering by. Even busy railway lines are far less intrusive.

Yep. And even a relatively quiet road can make an enormous impact if it's in the wrong place. The A40 is a moderately quiet dual carriageway, yet it can be heard many miles up the Monnow Valley.

 

[Crispy]

Nah i just wanted a daily mail comments esque moan really.

But i might do now. So the high speed line is actually going to miraculously transform things?

It will help. The unreliability of our busiest lines is in part due to their overcrowding (in terms of trains per available path) and their mixed uses. A little local train breaks down on a 2-track section of one of the mainlines, and it buggers up all the long-distance trains too.

Travelling at Christmas isn't the best way to get an impression of the network tbf. As people are off work, it's the best time to get major maintenance done with the minimal disruption.

 

[lizzieloo]

Motorways make an endless noise. Day and night. It's ruined what was the tranquil spaces in north Cardiff and Cefn Onn Park constantly reverberates to the sound of cars and lorries thundering by. Even busy railway lines are far less intrusive.

Yes but they are used to them being in their back yards.

There is a (fucking stupid) campaign in this village against a proposed turbine wind farm, one of the main arguments they use against is noise, we're about a mile away from the WCML in one direction and about 3/4 miles away from the M1 in the other, you can always hear one or the other, at night they maintain the railway, makes a right racket, they're all deaf to that.

Nimby twats

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Privatisation may be inefficient in many ways, but timetabling is not one of them. Where capacity is tight, the timetables are right up at the limits.

I'm in two minds about 1st class. The high price effectively subsidise fares for the rest of us. Abolishing 1st class train seats would have to be done alongside a general redistribution of wealth among the population. So come the revolution, I'm happy to see it go.

That must be a tiny subsidy in most cases. Thinking about the commuter trains I catch, first class passengers must make up no more than about 2 percent of the numbers. The subsidy to the rest of us must be well under 1 percent of our fares.

I'm not completely against the idea of 1st class, in the sense that I don't object to the idea of a 'treat'. In fact, if we had a fair distribution of wealth, that would obviate any need to get rid of 1st class on fairness grounds.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I took various trains when back in the UK over Christmas, between England/Wales n also up to Scotland and back.

Every single fucking train was delayed by at least a little bit of time, and one was cancelled completely for some vague reason. Fucking bullshit!

How can they be piping all this money into high speed train lines to save 25 minutes of some suit idiot's time, when the normal trains n train lines clearly need the cash. Grrr

Because putting in a non-stopping service on that route takes all the direct traffic onto that route, thus leaving more "slots" on local lines for stopping services, so that whiney people don't get delayed and can actually get a seat!!

It's not fucking rocket science!

 

[ViolentPanda]

You haven't read the thread, have you Riklet?

He thought he was reading the thread, but he was actually scratching his ringpiece, I suspect.

 

[ViolentPanda]

To increase line capacity they should get rid of all these private companies and have one single coordinated system. Get rid of 1st class too.

That wouldn't increase capacity, although it might streamline communications. As for getting rid of 1st class, I'm all for it, but the franchisees aren't. They luuurve being able to take knobbers for a double-bubble premium.

 

[Roadkill]

To increase line capacity they should get rid of all these private companies and have one single coordinated system. Get rid of 1st class too.

And how do you think renationalisation would increase line capacity? (Hint: in itself it wouldn't, for the reasons Crispy gives, although it's a good idea in every other respect)

First class does help to subsidise the rest of the service, especially on long-distance routes, and getting rid of it would create financial difficulties, as well as freeing up only a limited amount of extra space. Similarly, although trains can and should be lengthened on some routes, that still does not give the required capacity upgrade. So, it all comes back to the same old question: if you oppose HS2, what is your alternative?

 

[Crispy]

That must be a tiny subsidy in most cases. Thinking about the commuter trains I catch, first class passengers must make up no more than about 2 percent of the numbers.

Commuter trains are not the main market for 1st class (and I agree that it shouldn't exist at all on these trains). Long distance 1st class is where it's at. For example - getting to Bristol from London for a 9am meeting, a month from now. £25 2nd, £81 1st. And those 1st class cars will be full of people on business, charging the ticket to expenses.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Commuter trains are not the main market for 1st class (and I agree that it shouldn't exist at all on these trains). Long distance 1st class is where it's at. For example - getting to Bristol from London for a 9am meeting, a month from now. £25 2nd, £81 1st. And those 1st class cars will be full of people on business, charging the ticket to expenses.

Ah ok, yes, that makes sense. tbh the 'first class' on many Southeastern trains simply involves a different-colour seat. It's bizarre that anyone would pay extra for them.

 

[Crispy]

Ah ok, yes, that makes sense. tbh the 'first class' on many Southeastern trains simply involves a different-colour seat. It's bizarre that anyone would pay extra for them.

More likely to get a seat I suppose

 

[Greebo]

I'd like to see a "walk up and stand in first class" ticket. For the price of a second class fare plus £2, you'd have as much chance of sitting down as in 2nd class during rush hour (ie.none) but a bit more room to stand. Those who chose to buy it would free up standing space (and breathing space) in 2nd class for other hapless passengers.

 

[Crispy]

I'd like to see a "walk up and stand in first class" ticket. For the price of a second class fare plus £2, you'd have as much chance of sitting down as in 2nd class during rush hour (ie.none) but a bit more room to stand. Those who chose to buy it would free up standing space (and breathing space) in 2nd class for other hapless passengers.

That'd go down well with the seated 1st class passengers

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Surely you can stand in first class without a 1st class ticket already!

What winds me up is when there are no seats in 2nd class but seats spare in first. IME some guards are fine with you sitting down in 1st, but others are arsey.

 

[Roadkill]

Surely you can stand in first class without a 1st class ticket already!

Not technically, although some guards will let you when the train's packed. Some, however, are complete jobsworths. A certain friend of mine* was booted off a late and packed Cross Country service a few years back after he asked to be quoted a price for sitting on the floor in first. 'Don't worry mate,' said the BTP officer at the next station, who'd been summoned to make sure he left the train peaceably: 'we know that guard's an arsehole. Just hop on the next one.'

*This might or might not mean Longdog.

 

[Greebo]

Surely you can stand in first class without a 1st class ticket already!

What winds me up is when there are no seats in 2nd class but seats spare in first. IME some guards are fine with you sitting down in 1st, but others are arsey.

It's a free country, you can do whatever you damn well please - including getting fined/charged the 1st class fare for being caught standing in the 1st class section (I've seen seasonticket-holding commuters out of Euston getting caught like that before now).

 

[ViolentPanda]

That'd go down well with the seated 1st class passengers

Especially once the standers had farted in their faces a few times.