HS2 high-speed London-Birmingham route rail project - discussion

[Greebo]

That'd go down well with the seated 1st class passengers

There aren't usually that many of them to upset though.

 

[kained&able]

This doesnt stop in wycombe (despite all but going through it) therefore it is pointless, overly expensive and rubbish.

dave

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's a free country, you can do whatever you damn well please - including getting fined/charged the 1st class fare for being caught standing in the 1st class section (I've seen seasonticket-holding commuters out of Euston getting caught like that before now).

Ah ok. Trains with whole carriages that are 1st class. I rarely take those. Where 1st class is just a small section, that doesn't apply - you're only done if you're caught sitting down.

 

[Riklet]

He thought he was reading the thread, but he was actually scratching his ringpiece, I suspect.

Pretty much actually, although it's more itchy scalp at this time of day.

Anyway from my brief readings I am sold. Fuck the ancient forests, what good are they if one does not get to see them when zooming through them at 250kmph? Ok, maybe not.. but also train delays are making a bit more sense to me now seeing as the lines seem so chock-a-block. Fair point that travelling after christmas is not representative of the rest of the year, there did seem way more delays n problems than usual, I've use the trains loads the past few years, n was a bit surprised actually. First Late Western do usually live up to their name, but the trains normally turn up, to be fair....

Finished by 2026 though? Irish labour combined with Chinese foremen for maximum brutal efficiency is what nationalrail needs. Or else just press gang anyone buying first class fares, and forward comrades!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Pretty much actually, although it's more itchy scalp at this time of day.

That's probably the syphilis playing up again.

Anyway from my brief readings I am sold. Fuck the ancient forests...

To be fair, "ancient" is a matter of perspective. Most of the woods being talked about are only loosely "ancient", in that none of them (IIRC) are first growth, but actually date from the medieval era.

what good are they if one does not get to see them when zooming through them at 250kmph? Ok, maybe not.. but also train delays are making a bit more sense to me now seeing as the lines seem so chock-a-block. Fair point that travelling after christmas is not representative of the rest of the year, there did seem way more delays n problems than usual, I've use the trains loads the past few years, n was a bit surprised actually. First Late Western do usually live up to their name, but the trains normally turn up, to be fair....

Finished by 2026 though? Irish labour combined with Chinese foremen for maximum brutal efficiency is what nationalrail needs. Or else just press gang anyone buying first class fares, and forward comrades!

No way would Irish labour get used. Navvies are way too highly-qualified and expensive. They'll probably use disabled people to dig the cuttings and tunnels. "empower" the crippled scrounging bastards by making them work for their benefits!

 

[editor]

I haven;t got a problem with first class so long as there's enough second class, sorry standard class seats to go around.
It's a nice treat for me when I'm on a long journey and have work to do and if you time it right it often barely costs more than the usual fare.

Besides, those paying the full enormo price for 1st class help subsidise us serfs.

 

[laptop]

Besides, those paying the full enormo price for 1st class help subsidise us serfs.

What's even better is that they (or their companies) have paid shedloads specifically to avoid sitting next to me and thee.

Always walk through first class on the way to your seat, even if you haven't splashed out to annoy them properly

 

[coley]

Topographical and geological surveying, E.I.A.s, land purchase, preparatory infrastructural placement, that sort of thing.

And all before any consultation processes?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And all before any consultation processes?

I'd have thought that before you can consult, you need to have a clear idea about what is and isn't feasible. For instance, with Crossrail, they had worked out a route in detail first before asking the people who lived along it. They had to really - in order to know who they would have to ask.

The need for consultation is one of the big reasons this kind of thing takes longer here than in places like China. Which is a good thing, I would think.

 

[coley]

Hard to judge, this far post-privatisation of the railways, and given that BR was deliberately starved of major projects in the decade leading up to privatisation, but on the whole I can see the social benefits, even if the likes of Carillon, Amey etc are the ones who get the contracts as opposed to a direct labour force with private-sector companies merely subbing building it.

The companies will have been picked,the back pockets and brown envelopes will have ben filled and the requisite promises of directorships will have all been completed all before the first consultation process was announced.
Funny how this money is available with all the cuts flying around

 

[coley]

I'd have thought that before you can consult, you need to have a clear idea about what is and isn't feasible. For instance, with Crossrail, they had worked out a route in detail first before asking the people who lived along it. They had to really - in order to know who they would have to ask.

The need for consultation is one of the big reasons this kind of thing takes longer here than in places like China. Which is a good thing, I would think.

If the consultation ever resulted in the wishes of the consultees (is there such a word?) being respected then you would have a point

 

[ViolentPanda]

And all before any consultation processes?

Most of it. The surveying has to be done to establish feasibility, land purchase has to be done prior in order to minimise price inflation post-consultation (and can be sold on if the consultation fails at no loss) E.I.A.s are better done prior, due to then informing the consultation process (otherwise you'd have the consult, then have another couple of years faffing on top of lining up all the contractual stuff).

 

[Crispy]

If the consultation ever resulted in the wishes of the consultees (is there such a word?) being respected then you would have a point

Such as the green-roofing of the cutting where it passes settlements, one of the key changes in the most recent version of the plans, done specifically in response to complaints from the public?

 

[ViolentPanda]

The companies will have been picked,the back pockets and brown envelopes will have ben filled and the requisite promises of directorships will have all been completed all before the first consultation process was announced.
Funny how this money is available with all the cuts flying around

Even outwith private sector construction, all that "pre-consultation" work would have had to have been done anyway for any properly-executed feasibility study, and as with Cross-Rail and quite a few other transport infrastructure projects, the feasibility study funding was agreed back before the credit crunch.
People seem to be confused about just how long most of these projects take to go from proposal, to parliamentary approval, to feasibility study. 8-10 years isn't uncommon, neither is longer.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If the consultation ever resulted in the wishes of the consultees (is there such a word?) being respected then you would have a point

Off the top of my head - both rail-links to the CT had additional sound-deflection measures added along the line(s) before operation started, at the behest of locals, and much more tunnelling and cut-and-cover is being done on HS2 than was originally envisaged, for similar reasons.
Same with parts of Cross-Rail.

 

[coley]

Nope, still bullshitting. If there are so many experts out there, let's have some links.

The only one I've spotted this morning is Simon Jenkins in the Grauniad, who does know something about the railways, having been a part-time member of the British Rail Board in the 1980s. Nevertheless, his rant about HS2 is probably the single worst piece I've read on the subject - or the most disappointing, at any rate.

It's hardly controversial - or original - to suggest that it might run over-budget, although it's worth pointing out that HS1 did not. Meanwhile, the fundamental point that you, Jenkins and everyone else raging about HS2 are ignoring is that existing rail routes are nearing capacity and it is not feasible or cost-effective to expand them much further. Therefore, the question has to be asked: what is your alternative to HS2? If you can't come up with a credible answer to that, then there's no point even trying to have a conversation about it.

There is a credible alternative in the PS2 proposal which apparently wasnt considered seriously by those hell bent on the HS2 project

 

[coley]

Off the top of my head - both rail-links to the CT had additional sound-deflection measures added along the line(s) before operation started, at the behest of locals, and much more tunnelling and cut-and-cover is being done on HS2 than was originally envisaged, for similar reasons.
Same with parts of Cross-Rail.

Sops to the 'consultation process' as in the opposition to a wind farm around here was soothed by reducing the number proposed from 14 to 12, when everyone knew the real proposition was for 12 in the first place, as these 'impovements' to HS2 would have been in place and kept in reserve to demonstrate that consultation 'works'

 

[Roadkill]

There is a credible alternative in the PS2 proposal which apparently wasnt considered seriously by those hell bent on the HS2 project

Oh there was, was there? Let's hear what it was, why in your view it is a credible alternative to HS2, and the grounds upon which it was rejected.

Meanwhile, about those experts. If there were so many of them, I'm sure you won't have too much trouble in finding some references, will you?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sops to the 'consultation process' as in the opposition to a wind farm around here was soothed by reducing the number proposed from 14 to 12, when everyone knew the real proposition was for 12 in the first place, as these 'impovements' to HS2 would have been in place and kept in reserve to demonstrate that consultation 'works'

If that were the case, you'd expect the same kind of considerations in places that don't have consultation, such as China. But they aren't. Many infrastructure projects in China go ahead despite the fact that they seriously fuck up a lot of people, and those people are left with no mechanism for redress.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

There is a credible alternative in the PS2 proposal which apparently wasnt considered seriously

The details of which are.....?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Sops to the 'consultation process' as in the opposition to a wind farm around here was soothed by reducing the number proposed from 14 to 12, when everyone knew the real proposition was for 12 in the first place, as these 'impovements' to HS2 would have been in place and kept in reserve to demonstrate that consultation 'works'

If that's what you've chosen to believe, then no amount of proof that actually, community action got shit changed, is going to convince you, 'cos you're dead-set on your conspiracy theory.

 

[rover07]

The increase in line capacity looks very limited and comes at the expense of towns not on the HS2 route.

6. Impact on freed up WCML capacity

6.1 With the removal of the two peak time direct London-Liverpool Pendolino services and extension to Liverpool of two existing London-Birmingham services per hour, two peak time slots on the southern WCML would be freed for new suburban services between London and Northampton. HS2 Ltd's model of likely passenger demand on the WCML after HS2 indicates that it would be possible to free two further peak time slots per hour by withdrawing one of the existing London-Birmingham Pendolino services and one London-Manchester Pendolino service. In this scenario, the building of HS2 would thus free up just four peak time slots on the southern end of the WCML for new services.

6.2 This in itself seems a meagre return for such a huge investment. Its reliance on the removal of two London-Liverpool services for half of these freed slots has, as far as I am aware, not been noted by other commentators.

From the Commons Transport committee

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmtran/1185/1185vw163.htm

 

[Roadkill]

The increase in line capacity looks very limited and comes at the expense of towns not on the HS2 route.

From the Commons Transport committee

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmtran/1185/1185vw163.htm

That is NOT from the Select Committee itself, but quoted from a written submission by Sandra Tuppen, who is employed by the anti-HS2 campaign.
Hardly to be taken as gospel, in other words.

 

[coley]

Oh there was, was there? Let's hear what it was, why in your view it is a credible alternative to HS2, and the grounds upon which it was rejected.

Meanwhile, about those experts. If there were so many of them, I'm sure you won't have too much trouble in finding some references, will you?

Look up PS2

 

[Roadkill]

Look up PS2

What makes you think I haven't tried to?

Now, I'm still waiting to hear about these experts, unless you'd like to admit you've been caught bullshitting yet again...

 

[Crispy]

Look up PS2

Can't find anything. Lots of Playstation 2 train simulators though.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Look up PS2

Need slightly more info than that to search on, due to a certain games console...

 

[coley]

If that were the case, you'd expect the same kind of considerations in places that don't have consultation, such as China. But they aren't. Many infrastructure projects in China go ahead despite the fact that they seriously fuck up a lot of people, and those people are left with no mechanism for redress.

China doesnt have to 'go through the motions' we do though, as we are supposedly a democracy but I have never heard of a maior proposal being shelved as a result of consultations

 

[littlebabyjesus]

China doesnt have to 'go through the motions' we do though, as we are supposedly a democracy but I have never heard of a maior proposal being shelved as a result of consultations

There are lots of things you have never heard of that have nonetheless happened, though. Not a strong argument.

 

[rover07]

Academic researcher Dr Sandra Tuppen, who is working for the Wendover Protest Group in Buckinghamshire, said HS2 might not turn out to be a good deal for “ordinary rail users” in Birmingham who would be forced to pay extra to use high speed services rather than intercity.

Dr Tuppen said: “The number of intercity trains running between London and New Street will be reduced from three trains to one train per hour. This suggests to me that London-Birmingham passengers will have little choice but to use HS2, whatever the price.”

Read More http://www.birminghampost.net/news/...am-city-council-65233-29048623/#ixzz1jAW0LCQj

Not exactly good news for ordinary travellers. But at least wealthy commuters will be well catered for.