HS2 high-speed London-Birmingham route rail project - discussion

[laptop]

Double-deck trains were tried in the 1940s. They didn't work because it took too long to get people in and out, meaning over-long station stops.

Also, apparently, because making them small enough to squeeze through British tunnels meant they were really 1-and-a-half-decks - with the smelly feet of the people on the upper level right near the noses of those on the lower.

 

[Garek]

I'm totally against HS2.

If you want to increase productivity by an extra half an hour a day, i've a simpler, cheaper solution. GET UP EARLIER. This is subsidising rich people have a lie in to the tune of billions.
<snip>

I think you are being incredibly shot sighted. To slate this scheme on political terms as you are doing is a bit pathetic. Just look at the collapse of air traffic between Madrid and Seville. Look at the economic benefits to both cities.

 

[coley]

It's called long-term planning. We've already suffered - northern England probably more than anywhere - from the lack of commitment to railways in the 1960s/70s and failure to start providing high-speed lines then, as well from the short-sighted closure of several important routes at the same time, not least of which was the old Great Central Main Line, which would have been an ideal basis for a high-speed route.

Nothing wrong with long term planning as long as its meant to benefit the country as a whole rather than the tories at the next election as has been suggested, 26 marginals set to benefit from phase 1? coincidence?

Have they really? Some links, possibly?

Christian Wolmar is no fan of HS2 - and his arguments against have been oddly illogical - but aside from that most experts I'm aware of are broadly in favour, and no-one with an informed opinion doubts the need for greater capacity in future. Meanwhile, building a new line will entail far less disruption than upgrade work on existing rail routes does. Diversion of ionvestment away from existing lines and towards HS2 is a problem, although it's worth pointing out that there are firm commitments in place ofr some major infrastructure improvements, such as the Great Western Main Line electrification.

My mistake, obviously most train experts are going to approve any measures which expand their train sets, I should have said a majority of experts have concluded the economic benefits claimed dont stack up and its a gross misuse of infrastructure funding.

 

[Roadkill]

My mistake, obviously most train experts are going to approve any measures which expand their train sets, I should have said a majority of experts have concluded the economic benefits claimed dont stack up and its a gross misuse of infrastructure funding.

So, in other words, you're admitting that you were bullshitting and that those who actually know something about the issue recognise that HS2 is necessary.

 

[London_Calling]

I'm really not, umm, up to speed on this; when environmentalists talk about "destroying x number of ancient woodlands", do they mean driving a path approx. 50' wide through part of x number of 300+ year woods?

 

[Ted Striker]

I'm really not, umm, up to speed on this; when environmentalists talk about "destroying x number of ancient woodlands", do they mean driving a path approx. 50' wide through part of x number of 300+ year woods?

Tbh, shouldn't really admit this, but the environmental aspect of a rail infrastructure product is the very least of any concerns. If a new train line ploughs through lovely countryside, I think "woo hoo, great views", not (((countryside))).

 

[London_Calling]

tbh, I'm just trying to understand aspects without the emotional hyperbole.

I'm also not sure about the amount of noise this will generate when fully operational?

 

[Crispy]

I've been looking at the route plan PDFs, which are available from the DfT here:http://assets.dft.gov.uk/hs2-maps-20120110.htm

The fuss over the Chilterns is ridiculous. The line is bored tunnel from just inside the M25, all the way to South Heath, where it runs in cutting (and the cutting is turned back into a tunnel by putting a roof on it when it gets anywhere near a town/village) for nearly all of the rest of the route through the Chiltern Hills. The only part that will be visible from anywhere not immediately next to the cutting, is a short stretch of viaduct outside Wendover, where it spoils the view of the bypass road and the existing mainline railway (over which the viaduct will span). When the tracks pass the actual town, they are back in a covered cutting tunnel. From there, the land flattens out and it's just plain old countryside, not precious hills.

 

[Garek]

Tbh, shouldn't really admit this, but the environmental aspect of a rail infrastructure product is the very least of any concerns. If a new train line ploughs through lovely countryside, I think "woo hoo, great views", not (((countryside))).

I find it rather galling that the same right wing cunts who are up in arms about the damage to 'their' bit of countryside are the ones who would have had no problem pouring absolute scorn onto those who opposed the roadbuilding that went on from the sixties onwards. The 'damage' a rail line does compared to a motorway is hardly comparable.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I love walking in the Chilterns, seeing the return of the red kites has been quite wonderful. I very much doubt HS2 will have quite the impact that the M40 has had though, so fucking bring it on!

 

[g force]

I did like the enviornmental campaigner who claimed they should be focusing on investment in London rail infrastrcuture for commuters. He seemed to have missed the idea that a 49 min journey to and from Brum makes it a daily commutable journey. I'd be tempted to move back to Brum - I only ever left because there were no decent jobs.

There does also appear to have been genuine attempts to limited damage by having covered cuttings and more tunnels.

 

[coley]

So, in other words, you're admitting that you were bullshitting and that those who actually know something about the issue recognise that HS2 is necessary.

Not at all, there are many who, a majority from the noises I am hearing who are arguing that HS2 doesnt make its case on a number of factors, economic benefits being one of the main ones.

And even if it did, I think given the present circumstances the money could be much better spent and if they are saying 32.7 billion I would suggest a real figure would prove to be at least 10% more, they have spent 750 million on 'preparatory measures' already, whatever preparatory measures' are?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

The only negative is the sheer timescale of getting the bloody thing built. I can't help but think that if this were China it would be up and running in a couple of years.

It'd be unsafe, sure, but still

 

[Roadkill]

Not at all, there are many who, a majority from the noises I am hearing who are arguing that HS2 doesnt make its case on a number of factors, economic benefits being one of the main ones.

Nope, still bullshitting. If there are so many experts out there, let's have some links.

The only one I've spotted this morning is Simon Jenkins in the Grauniad, who does know something about the railways, having been a part-time member of the British Rail Board in the 1980s. Nevertheless, his rant about HS2 is probably the single worst piece I've read on the subject - or the most disappointing, at any rate.

And even if it did, I think given the present circumstances the money could be much better spent and if they are saying 32.7 billion I would suggest a real figure would prove to be at least 10% more, they have spent 750 million on 'preparatory measures' already, whatever preparatory measures' are?

It's hardly controversial - or original - to suggest that it might run over-budget, although it's worth pointing out that HS1 did not. Meanwhile, the fundamental point that you, Jenkins and everyone else raging about HS2 are ignoring is that existing rail routes are nearing capacity and it is not feasible or cost-effective to expand them much further. Therefore, the question has to be asked: what is your alternative to HS2? If you can't come up with a credible answer to that, then there's no point even trying to have a conversation about it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm totally against HS2.

If you want to increase productivity by an extra half an hour a day, i've a simpler, cheaper solution. GET UP EARLIER. This is subsidising rich people have a lie in to the tune of billions.

Also, I'd like to congratulate the Conservative Govt on securing their election victory in 2015 with this. Wonder Why I say this? Think of it like this ; They'll lose 4 or so seats along the line - but the massive, multi-million pound redevelopment of Curzon St station being rebuilt from scratch will secure employment for thousands in inner Birmingham, mostly labour constituencies. This will secure a Conservative majority in Birmingham. Whose going to build the rolling stock?Bombardier in Derby? Well, that'll secure Derby areas too. Add in the fact that the Conservative vote will come back in term 3 or so from the rail line, and you're looking at a gain of about 15 or seats. Add in the fact that once Scotland declares independence and leaves, Labour will lose 41 seats. The Conservatives will lose 1. Add in the reduction of MPS from 650 to 600, and then The Conservatives will have gained the system. Conservative gain, +25, Labour lost, 41 in Scotland, +15 in the Uk. Our only hope is that it gets shot it down in ratification in 2014.

All it takes to game the system to win your next election is £32.7 billion , it seems.

Ever considered hitting yourself in the head with a hammer, to let some sense in?

Just a thought.

 

[Roadkill]

And all because no one works on trains - everytime I get on a long distance train journey, no one uses a laptop or mobile phone. Honest.

(I get it, roady. I do)

For the reasons Free Spirit gives, I really don't think you do.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Or is it another scam to stuff the pockets of the corporations with more of our billions?

Hard to judge, this far post-privatisation of the railways, and given that BR was deliberately starved of major projects in the decade leading up to privatisation, but on the whole I can see the social benefits, even if the likes of Carillon, Amey etc are the ones who get the contracts as opposed to a direct labour force with private-sector companies merely subbing building it.

 

[rover07]

The railways are only full to capacity during commuter rush hours. First class is NEVER full.

The whole thing is being built for the benefit of business people going to meetings in London.

Get up earlier you lazy fuckers!

 

[DJWrongspeed]

I accept this is all about capacity but it will still have a significant impact on ancient woodlands. These are under threat all over the UK. HS2 cannot be made an exception. Woodland trust view

If you've ever spent a day watching countryside being ripped up for a road you would think twice. I'll never forget that day in Newbury.....

Isn't this really about the failure of the WCML upgrade. Possibly a result of privatisation?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

The railways are only full to capacity during commuter rush hours. First class is NEVER full.

The whole thing is being built for the benefit of business people going to meetings in London.

Get up earlier you lazy fuckers!

 

[Roadkill]

Isn't this really about the failure of the WCML upgrade. Possibly a result of privatisation?

No. The WCML upgrade needed doing because the line - which last saw a major upgrade in the 60s - was falling apart. It could not and AFAIK did not intend to provide the sort of capacity that will be needed a few decades from now. Privatisation is only relevant in that the WCML upgrade ran way over-budget - in contrast to British Rail's completion of the ECML upgrade on time and in budget in the 1980s.

*edit* As for the first point you make, no-one likes seeing ancient woodland built over, but again, what is the alternative?

 

[stuff_it]

Does not stop outside my house, therefore is shit.

 

[rover07]

Have you ever got the train from London to Birmingham and couldnt get a seat?

I go about once a month and 9 times out of 10 get a double seat with no-one sat opposite.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

what is the alternative?

Magic levitating trains. That are high speed yet stop everywhere. For free.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

For a national infrastructure project that is going to create a permanent un-natural barrier through enormous swathes of the country, the Woodland Trust finds the attitude taken towards the natural heritage impacts of HS2 cavalier.

The Woodland Trust's view

 

[Roadkill]

Magic levitating trains. That are high speed yet stop everywhere. For free.

Of course. How silly of me to forget the flying trains.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not at all, there are many who, a majority from the noises I am hearing who are arguing that HS2 doesnt make its case on a number of factors, economic benefits being one of the main ones.

And even if it did, I think given the present circumstances the money could be much better spent and if they are saying 32.7 billion I would suggest a real figure would prove to be at least 10% more, they have spent 750 million on 'preparatory measures' already, whatever preparatory measures' are?

Topographical and geological surveying, E.I.A.s, land purchase, preparatory infrastructural placement, that sort of thing.

 

[8ball]

Let's all have helicopters!

 

[Greebo]

If as you claim, first class is never full (not even before bank holiday weekends, are you sure?), I doubt that's because people don't want to sit there. More likely that a first class ticket is so much more expensive that even people travelling for business reasons can neither justify nor afford the higher price.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The railways are only full to capacity during commuter rush hours. First class is NEVER full.

You've entirely missed the point of what "capacity" means in this context, old fruit. We're talking about line capacity, not train or carriage capacity, dumkopf!!!

The whole thing is being built for the benefit of business people going to meetings in London.

Get up earlier you lazy fuckers!

Oh, if only life were as simple as you are, eh?