HS2 high-speed London-Birmingham route rail project - discussion

[Roadkill]

Not so, if you run the trains on time (ok, definite flaw) you will know where the express will pass the local train, you just have to build a bypass at that location, no?

That already happens. Problem is, they make a relatively minor difference on a busy railway, and adding more would cost a lot of money as well as causing even more disruption.

The West Coast Main Line is nearly full to capacity now. No amount of bodging and quick fixes will change that.

 

[Crispy]

Not so, take a look at teh Met Line.

The Met line is able to run fast and semi-fast services because it has bypass lines. that run parallel to the entire run of stations that the fast services do not stop at. The fast services already use the Met's "HS2" in effect. If the Met fast lines went all the way to Baker Street, then the comparison would be even more apt.

Not so, if you run the trains on time (ok, definite flaw) you will know where the express will pass the local train, you just have to build a bypass at that location, no?

To get enough operational flexibility (ie. timetables are not set in stone and do change, year to year and day to day depending on conditions), your bypass lines end up being an entirely new set of tracks all the way from one end to the other. The WCML is already set up like this, as far as Crewe. There are slow and fast lines. But both sets are already full - no overtaking can take place, as there is always another train in the way.

So, we could build another set of lines on the WCML. In fact the HS2 consultants have done a study into this very option. It turns out that it would be more expensive than a new railway, would be limited to 125mph (due to the WCML's twisty route) and would cause more disruption on a line that's only just got back to full working after a decade of improvement works.

No. If you want to add capacity to the West Coast route, you build a new railway. You build it high-speed, because it's a bonus feature for not much more money.

 

[Shifter]

Fair enough, learn something every day and this is what I learned today. So thank you.

I really need to read up some more on this.

 

[Crispy]

No worries
It's not the story that the media are telling, of course...

 

[Roadkill]

No worries
It's not the story that the media are telling, of course...

True that. In most of the papers, coverage of HS2 has been - all too predictably - a parade of misinformed, agenda-laden twaddle.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Impossible - well, unless the cash could be found to modify pretty much every bridge, tunnel, catenary and platform face on the network, which it never will be. We're stuck with the 1830s loading gauge and will just have to live with it. (The old Great Central Main Line was built to a larger loading gauge, actually, but there's no hope of reopening that.)

There has been some raising of bridges etc to allow 9' 6" high containers (as opposed to the older 8' 6" ones) to be carried on strategic freight routes, but even that has been very costly.

Double-deck trains were tried in the 1940s. They didn't work because it took too long to get people in and out, meaning over-long station stops.

On DB, average seems to be about 8 mins for their double-deckers, althugh I suspect they build the long stops into the timetable, because those babies seemed to get pretty packed at the major stations!

 

[ViolentPanda]

HS2 is primarily about capacity, not speed.

*edit* That said, when they extend it further north, faster journey times will make it a more effective compettitor for internal air services.

Although on time rather than price, I suspect.

 

[moochedit]

pdf maps of the route here if anyone is interested....

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/hs2-maps-20120110.htm

it passes quite close to me (south coventry) but not too close fortunately. i wish it would bloody stop here though

 

[Roadkill]

On DB, average seems to be about 8 mins for their double-deckers, althugh I suspect they build the long stops into the timetable, because those babies seemed to get pretty packed at the major stations!

Probably, and that's even with the German loading gauge, which means trains can be more spacious inside than ours can. Plus, the main use for double-deck trains in Britain would be on the London commuter routes, where services run very close together and can't make long stops at intermediate stations. It's there that upgrading the infrastructure to cope would be most expensive too...

Although on time rather than price, I suspect.

Probably, although it's worth noting that even now the railways are the aeroplane's main competitor on some routes. Air traffic between London and Manchester dropped quite a bit when the Pendolinos were introduced on the WCML a few years ago, IIRC.

 

[Crispy]

pdf maps of the route here if anyone is interested....

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/hs2-maps-20120110.htm

it passes quite close to me (south coventry) but not too close fortunately. i wish it would bloody stop here though

Coventry is exactly the sort of place that should see improved WCML services after HS2 opens. Stopping HS2 there would defeat its purpose.

 

[StraightOuttaQ]

I'm totally against HS2.

If you want to increase productivity by an extra half an hour a day, i've a simpler, cheaper solution. GET UP EARLIER. This is subsidising rich people have a lie in to the tune of billions.

Also, I'd like to congratulate the Conservative Govt on securing their election victory in 2015 with this. Wonder Why I say this? Think of it like this ; They'll lose 4 or so seats along the line - but the massive, multi-million pound redevelopment of Curzon St station being rebuilt from scratch will secure employment for thousands in inner Birmingham, mostly labour constituencies. This will secure a Conservative majority in Birmingham. Whose going to build the rolling stock?Bombardier in Derby? Well, that'll secure Derby areas too. Add in the fact that the Conservative vote will come back in term 3 or so from the rail line, and you're looking at a gain of about 15 or seats. Add in the fact that once Scotland declares independence and leaves, Labour will lose 41 seats. The Conservatives will lose 1. Add in the reduction of MPS from 650 to 600, and then The Conservatives will have gained the system. Conservative gain, +25, Labour lost, 41 in Scotland, +15 in the Uk. Our only hope is that it gets shot it down in ratification in 2014.

All it takes to game the system to win your next election is £32.7 billion , it seems.

 

[Roadkill]

I'm totally against HS2.

If you want to increase productivity by an extra half an hour a day, i've a simpler, cheaper solution. GET UP EARLIER. This is subsidising rich people have a lie in to the tune of billions.

 

[coley]

Or is it another scam to stuff the pockets of the corporations with more of our billions?

 

[bignose1]

Or is it another scam to stuff the pockets of the corporations with more of our billions?

Says itll cost 32 bill....double it!!!

 

[bi0boy]

It's probably needed more than another thread on the subject.

 

[Roadkill]

Yes, it is needed.

Most of the debate around HS2 has focused on speed, with people arguing that reduced journey times are of marginal benefit. That completely misses the point. High speed is the bonus: the real issue is capacity. Existing north-south rail routes are already nearing maximum and there is no way to upgrade them sufficiently to give the kind of capacity - for both passengers and freight - we're likely to need in two or three decades' time. There is no credible alternative to HS2, and the decision to build it is one of the few sensible decisions this government has made.

 

[coley]

It's probably needed more than another thread on the subject.

Up to now its been speculation, now confirmed, though we are supposedly broke and we have to cut everything the govt can find 32 bill but ;;;;;;;;;;;wait for it......infrastructure improvements in the South.

 

[StraightOuttaQ]

And all because no one works on trains - everytime I get on a long distance train journey, no one uses a laptop or mobile phone. Honest.

(I get it, roady. I do)

 

[Crispy]

Up to now its been speculation, now confirmed, though we are supposedly broke and we have to cut everything the govt can find 32 bill but ;;;;;;;;;;;wait for it......infrastructure improvements in the South.

1. The £32b figure is for the full Y-shaped line to Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds and will be spent over many years (completion of the full network in 2033)

2. Nothing will be built until after the next election, as we're currently in Austerity Mode.

3. The benefits will spread to any city along the route that is experiencing congested railways (ie. most of them). By moving the intercities onto HS2, the local connections can be improved.

 

[coley]

1. The £32b figure is for the full Y-shaped line to Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds and will be spent over many years (completion of the full network in 2033)

2. Nothing will be built until after the next election, as we're currently in Austerity Mode.

3. The benefits will spread to any city along the route that is experiencing congested railways (ie. most of them). By moving the intercities onto HS2, the local connections can be improved.

Whey, as BN has mentioned, if anyone expects the costs to remain at 32 Billion they probably believe the moon is made of green cheese but the work will begin between Brum and london, the 2nd and 3d phase? I aint hanging by my knackers waiting for it.
Most rail experts have warned of the existing infrastructure being starved of investment and also major disruption is expected during HS2s construction.
All this while a major portion of the A1 in Northumberland is still single lane country road, aye, "we are all in this together"

 

[Roadkill]

Whey, as BN has mentioned, if anyone expects the costs to remain at 32 Billion they probably believe the moon is made of green cheese but the work will begin between Brum and london, the 2nd and 3d phase? I aint hanging by my knackers waiting for it.

It's called long-term planning. We've already suffered - northern England probably more than anywhere - from the lack of commitment to railways in the 1960s/70s and failure to start providing high-speed lines then, as well from the short-sighted closure of several important routes at the same time, not least of which was the old Great Central Main Line, which would have been an ideal basis for a high-speed route.

Most rail experts have warned of the existing infrastructure being starved of investment and also major disruption is expected during HS2s construction.

Have they really? Some links, possibly?

Christian Wolmar is no fan of HS2 - and his arguments against have been oddly illogical - but aside from that most experts I'm aware of are broadly in favour, and no-one with an informed opinion doubts the need for greater capacity in future. Meanwhile, building a new line will entail far less disruption than upgrade work on existing rail routes does. Diversion of ionvestment away from existing lines and towards HS2 is a problem, although it's worth pointing out that there are firm commitments in place ofr some major infrastructure improvements, such as the Great Western Main Line electrification.

 

[moochedit]

Coventry is exactly the sort of place that should see improved WCML services after HS2 opens. Stopping HS2 there would defeat its purpose.

I wasn't entirely serious as i wouldn't expect them to stop in cov but if it is stopping by the nec that's good enough for me

 

[sleaterkinney]

33 billion

 

[lizzieloo]

33 billion

It's a mahoosive infrastructure project, what do you expect?

How much do you think the motorways have cost to build? Think we could do without them now?

I expect a few jaws hit the ground back then about how much they were going to cost.

ETA: I might be feeling a *bit* pissy after watching the news.

 

[free spirit]

And all because no one works on trains - everytime I get on a long distance train journey, no one uses a laptop or mobile phone. Honest.

(I get it, roady. I do)

I don't think you do.

HS2 will free up huge amounts of capacity on the existing rail infrastructure, something that there is pretty much no other way of doing as they've now done pretty much everything else possible to increase that capacity and the trains all along these routes are stuffed way over capacity a lot of the time. Anything else they could do to upgrade the existing lines would also involve at least a decade of massive disruption and reduced service levels to the existing train lines, whereas HS2 will have minimal impact during it's construction as it's mostly on entirely different routes to the existing lines.

how much work gets done on someones laptop while they're stood in the corridor because there are no seats?

 

[StraightOuttaQ]

I don't think you do.

how much work gets done on someones laptop while they're stood in the corridor because there are no seats?

Malformed trains? I suspect a lack of rolling stock is an issue. In other words, £32.7billion can be spent in far better ways. Personally, whenever I've travelled I've seen fair quantites of room for people. Your experience may be different.

 

[Crispy]

Malformed trains? I suspect a lack of rolling stock is an issue. In other words, £32.7billion can be spent in far better ways. Personally, whenever I've travelled I've seen fair quantites of room for people. Your experience may be different.

In places, there are not enough trains. But the bigger problem is not enough track.

 

[8ball]

I like turtles!!

And fast trains.

 

[editor]

I live close to a busy railway line and the noise it makes it but a tiny fraction of road traffic. More trains. More freight on trains too, please. Thanks.

 

[editor]

*threads merged, title edited for clarity