HS2 high-speed London-Birmingham route rail project - discussion

[platinumsage]

We will see if they reduce the capacity of Euston to deliberately hamper future attempts to reinstate northern legs of HS2.

It has already been directed today that northern leg compulsory property purchases are to be sold, which won’t make it any easier.

 

[Winot]

We will see if they reduce the capacity of Euston to deliberately hamper future attempts to reinstate northern legs of HS2.

 

[platinumsage]

There's always the British Library which can be demolished in 2050 to make space for HS2 expansion. I'm sure a VR environment and a basement in Hull would be sufficient to accommodate all those old fusty books.

 

[teuchter]

It's very depressing to watch how, aside from the financial waste, months, years of work by lots of people can just be thrown away forever like this.

 

[platinumsage]

It's very depressing to watch how, aside from the financial waste, months, years of work by lots of people can just be thrown away forever like this.

Not really. Having years of work count for nothing is routine for workers in various other sectors, from scientists to soldiers.

 

[teuchter]

Not really. Having years of work count for nothing is routine for workers in various other sectors, from scientists to soldiers.

It's depressing whatever the sector.

 

[platinumsage]

It's depressing whatever the sector.

It shouldn't be a consideration in changing or terminating projects though. "Let's carry on doing this thing we've started otherwise the workers will feel bad at not having finished it" isn't a sensible approach to government.

 

[Crispy]

Absolute fucking joke of a country

 

[teuchter]

It shouldn't be a consideration in changing or terminating projects though. "Let's carry on doing this thing we've started otherwise the workers will feel bad at not having finished it" isn't a sensible approach to government.

I haven't said anything about whether or not it should be a consideration, but I hope you enjoyed typing your sentences out.

It's depressing to see years of long term planning, and the long term opportunities that could have been, thrown out for short term gain by a bunch of idiots with no depth of understanding or interest in the project they are trashing. It's depressing to see that it can be done in such a cursory fashion.

 

[hash tag]

There's always the British Library which can be demolished in 2050 to make space for HS2 expansion. I'm sure a VR environment and a basement in Hull would be sufficient to accommodate all those old fusty books.

The British Library is having a massive underground extension built.

 

[prunus]

The British Library is having a massive underground extension built.

Will it reach to Manchester?

 

[tim]

So it’s not going to Manchester and will be Birmingham to Acton. What’s the point?

Increased ridership and reduced turnaround times as a significant proportion of passengers would feel no desire to detrain at either terminus.

 

[hash tag]

I haven't said anything about whether or not it should be a consideration, but I hope you enjoyed typing your sentences out.

It's depressing to see years of long term planning, and the long term opportunities that could have been, thrown out for short term gain by a bunch of idiots with no depth of understanding or interest in the project they are trashing. It's depressing to see that it can be done in such a cursory fashion.

Its continually depressing to see years of planning on many major projects only for them to be cancelled and the money disappearing up someone's black hole. The garden bridge springs to mind.

 

[equationgirl]

This is just appalling. The North of England desparately needs a thorough rail infrastructure upgrade, and these 'hundreds of projects' are yet to be specified never mind evaluated.

As HS2 stands now it's another white elephant because any gains in travel time would potentially be lost by HS stopping at Old Oak Common and having to transfer to the purple train.

Makes no sense.

 

[DaveCinzano]

 

[likesfish]

This has been a hit show from start to finish.
truly Military style planning see FRES or the Chinook saga or SA80 for the sort of military planning I'm talking about .

the thing was over specced and took to long to get it done it's a railway line we invented trains

 

[teuchter]

This is just appalling. The North of England desparately needs a thorough rail infrastructure upgrade, and these 'hundreds of projects' are yet to be specified never mind evaluated.

As HS2 stands now it's another white elephant because any gains in travel time would potentially be lost by HS stopping at Old Oak Common and having to transfer to the purple train.

Makes no sense.

Travel time gains aren't really the main point - but there will still be some. The intention remains for it to continue into Euston. There will be many journeys, to/from other parts of London and the south of England, that will be considerably quicker than now, thanks to the opportunity to change at Old Oak Common which in itself is arguably a better interchange point than Euston.

Whether it's a "white elephant" depends on where you decide to set your cost/benefit threshold. There's little doubt though, the cost/benefit ratio will now be worse than if phase 2 were to be built.

 

[teuchter]

the thing was over specced

How so, exactly?

 

[likesfish]

How so, exactly?

They had some engineer on radio 4 whose worked on high speed rail throughout Europe and said HS2 was more of a Monument than high speed rail.
The military term was “ unique British requirements “

I.e. the good idea fairy comes up with a good idea that turns out to be really expensive and complex but doesn’t actually deliver any useful extra capability.

 

[teuchter]

They had some engineer on radio 4 whose worked on high speed rail throughout Europe and said HS2 was more of a Monument than high speed rail.
The military term was “ unique British requirements “

I.e. the good idea fairy comes up with a good idea that turns out to be really expensive and complex but doesn’t actually deliver any useful extra capability.

Well, that certainly doesn't answer my question.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

 

[Pickman's model]

How so, exactly?

Too many trips to the opticians

 

[hash tag]

Euston is not yet a given then
BBC News - HS2 will not go to Euston without private funds

HS2 will not go to Euston without private funds

If the money cannot be raised then passengers travelling to and from central London will have to change.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Gerry1time]

Am admission that this government can't keep its finances under control.

The problem with conservatism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.

 

[Dogsauce]

The list of alternative projects is absurd, reads like they just got some intern to quickly cobble together a list of potential schemes in marginal constituencies to try and deflect the bad news.

Most offer worse cost/benefit than HS2, some were rejected in the Restoring Your Railway scheme, other elements already have the funding announced (so dishonest to pretend this is new spending) and at least one has already been built.

They haven’t done any serious costing either, no way some of them can be built for what was quoted. And good luck going ahead with this many electrification projects in one go (supposedly before HS2 was originally supposed to open) - there simply isn’t enough manpower and kit to enable this.

 

[teuchter]

Yup, it's all complete nonsense.

 

[Dogsauce]

Someone’s actually done the sums (as much as you can with the scant info given) and two-thirds of the money ‘saved‘ on HS2 is going on road schemes. Tossers.

 

[T & P]

The gift that keeps on giving…

HS2 services to Manchester may run slower than normal trains

‘High-speed’ trains from Birmingham to Manchester could also impact west coast mainline service

www.theguardian.com

 

[Dogsauce]

The phase they’ve cancelled from Birmingham to Crewe was the cheapest, easiest to build part (no excessive tunnelling to keep politically important chiltern nimbys placated) that would still have made a lot of difference in journey times to the north and improved the overall financial viability. Without it the business case is much worse, with just London-Birmingham traffic having to carry the sunk costs of building it. If you’re only running six trains an hour from Euston rather than eighteen, it’s not going to get the same return from much reduced passenger use. It’s economically illiterate to shut this part down. But then the decision is ideological rather than logical, Sunak hated public transport and public spending generally.

 

[BigTom]

Is it a silver lining that Sunak will forever be associated with HS2 actually making things worse than doing nothing at all?
Like if HS2 had been built and it turned out to be way more expensive than the benefits it provided, at least we'd still have those benefits. It might have cost too much but it brought improvements.

Am I too hopeful that this is going to end up going badly against the tories at the next election? I'd be banging on about them having no vision, no ambition, not enough competence to even build a railway line in the country the invented railways etc...