HS2 high-speed London-Birmingham route rail project - discussion

[SpookyFrank]

In which case, half the time ‘saved’ on a hs2 train is probably lost by having to travel to an out of city location to get on it in the first place. How typically British.

In the case of London to Nottingham, it'll probably be worse. There is at present no direct train line between where the East Midlands Hub will be and Nottingham station but you can get a tram to somewhere near there. It takes just over half an hour. I dunno how fast these high speed trains are going to go but considering they need to go via Birmingham when the current London-Nottingham line does not there's not a chance in hell it'll actually save any time at all. Most likely it will be slower. Slower and more expensive.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Now I'm seeing maps that suggest there'll be a spur from the 'East Midlands Hub' to Leicester. So from London you'll go Northwest to Birmingham, Northeast to somehwere in the sticks between Nottingham and Derby, and then South again to Leicester. Some fuckwit got paid to come up with that idea

 

[moochedit]

In the case of London to Nottingham, it'll probably be worse. There is at present no direct train line between where the East Midlands Hub will be and Nottingham station but you can get a tram to somewhere near there. It takes just over half an hour. I dunno how fast these high speed trains are going to go but considering they need to go via Birmingham when the current London-Nottingham line does not there's not a chance in hell it'll actually save any time at all. Most likely it will be slower. Slower and more expensive.

coventry to london will be slower because the existing london to birmingham trains stop here in cov every 20 mins during the day. But once hs2 opens they will almost certainly cut the number of trains running on the existing line due to london to birmingham passengers using hs2. So we would either have to wait longer for a train on the existing line or try and get a train to brum so we can then get onto hs2. Either way it'll take longer.

Bet the hs2 tickets cost about £500 as well to try and recover the cost.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I used to be fully behind HS2. I’m not so sure any more

 

[Dogsauce]

It should count itself lucky it's getting a city centre HS2 station. Nowhere else will.

...apart from London, Leeds, Manchester...

 

[8ball]

I used to be fully behind HS2. I’m not so sure any more

It's a load of old bollocks.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

It's a load of old bollocks.

And a waste of money. Typical London-centric shit.

 

[kebabking]

And a waste of money. Typical London-centric shit.

My old boy takes the view that the one place HS2 shouldn't go is London - same routes in the north and Midlands, just that it should stop at Birmingham. It should be about building up the northern and midland economy, not make it easier to get to London.
I certainly think it's time for a comparative study - what gets better results:£40billion (or whatever) on HS2, or £40bn pumped into the wider rail network..

 

[Winot]

Now I'm seeing maps that suggest there'll be a spur from the 'East Midlands Hub' to Leicester. So from London you'll go Northwest to Birmingham, Northeast to somehwere in the sticks between Nottingham and Derby, and then South again to Leicester. Some fuckwit got paid to come up with that idea

Particularly as London St. Pancras - Leicester can currently be done in about 75 mins.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

My old boy takes the view that the one place HS2 shouldn't go is London - same routes in the north and Midlands, just that it should stop at Birmingham. It should be about building up the northern and midland economy, not make it easier to get to London.
I certainly think it's time for a comparative study - what gets better results:£40billion (or whatever) on HS2, or £40bn pumped into the wider rail network..

I agree - the proposals to spend the money on what is dubbed HS3 across the trans-Pennine corridor make much more sense. Improving the transport infrastructure along the M62 belt would make a big difference, and doing it properly with new tunnels under the Pennines should be the way to go. This is an interesting comparison with economies of similar Dutch and German regions.

The only issue is how to connect the NE, given it is a bit out on a limb geographically.

 

[Dogsauce]

The only issue is how to connect the NE, given it is a bit out on a limb geographically.

There's been vague discussions in the past of improving the Leeds- Newcastle route by reopening the line from Harrogate through Ripon to the ECML (joining near Northallerton I think), bypassing York. The York-Newcastle route is fairly flat and fast anyway, bar the odd flooding issue, so a high speed upgrade wouldn't be too costly. Could also improve the route into/through Newcastle which is a bit of a twisty basketcase at the moment.

 

[Winot]

DfT economic models depend heavily on per capita economic turnovet/savings and there are hugely more people that move to/from London than between northern cities which skews the modelling. It’s stupidly self-perpetuating but that’s a key reason for the decision that’s been made.

 

[Crispy]

It's not an either/or matter. HS2 will remove long distance trains from the most congested parts of the "classic" network. This will then allow for a)more local services on those lines and b)less disruptive upgrade/extension work to those lines. Other European countries were already doing this decades ago. We're playing catch up.

NPR/HS3, or whatever they're calling it now, is equally important. Get the big cities connected with dedicated lines and improve local services on the old lines.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

It's not an either/or matter. HS2 will remove long distance trains from the most congested parts of the "classic" network. This will then allow for a)more local services on those lines and b)less disruptive upgrade/extension work to those lines. Other European countries were already doing this decades ago. We're playing catch up.

NPR/HS3, or whatever they're calling it now, is equally important. Get the big cities connected with dedicated lines and improve local services on the old lines.

The problem is the sequencing - loads of cash is spent in schemes in London, or to benefit London and then regional schemes are cancelled. So the regions should come first for a change. London and the SE gets a disproportionate amount of infrastructure spending and this has to stop.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Crispy’s arguments have had me convinced and I still am, on the need for the thing and on why if we have it, the thing may as well be high speed. But what seems to be playing out here is a garden bridge situation whereby the thing will never happen, as there’s just too much money to suck out of it without the expense and agg of actually doing anything. UK teaching dem third rate kleptocracies a thing or two, as per.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I think bits of it will happen. Which will render it pointless.

 

[alex_]

The problem is the sequencing - loads of cash is spent in schemes in London, or to benefit London and then regional schemes are cancelled. So the regions should come first for a change. London and the SE gets a disproportionate amount of infrastructure spending and this has to stop.

Yes, the Liverpool Manchester Leeds york line and legs to Sheffield and hull should have been high speed lines decades ago.

Liverpool york - train 1hr 45m - <100 miles
York London - train 2 hrs - 200 miles

Shows quite how bad things are

Alex

 

[Crispy]

The problem is the sequencing - loads of cash is spent in schemes in London, or to benefit London and then regional schemes are cancelled. So the regions should come first for a change. London and the SE gets a disproportionate amount of infrastructure spending and this has to stop.

Couldn't agree more. HS2 and aka HS3 are both needed, but the order should be swapped. HS3 does more social good. Unfortunately, our noble lords at DfT only really consider business cases.

HS2 (in it's final form - ref: bees' post - phase 2 has an even better "business case" than phase 1. I think it'll happen.) will benefit more than just London though.




About 1/3 of all trains on HS2 tracks won't even go to London, but will terminate in Birmingham and head back North.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Couldn't agree more. HS2 and aka HS3 are both needed, but the order should be swapped. HS3 does more social good. Unfortunately, our noble lords at DfT only really consider business cases.

They should bin any more second crossrail nonsense and spend the money in the North instead. That's vanishingly unlikely to happen of course, given how skewed things are.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

Dispatches on C4 tonight, will suggest that the government could be looking to abandon the whole thing...

you can catch it here if you're registered.

There was a very good point made about HS rail being more suitable for the European mainland but less effective in here because we're a small island.
It seems this northern powerhouse rail idea wasn't on anyone's radar when they were dreaming this whole thing up. Hope it gets cancelled. No one really explains that it all goes back to the failed West Coast upgrade programme that proved such a disaster. After that a new rail line seemed like the only way forward.

Great quote "That wouldn't be allowed in Surrey" on the Northern Rail fiasco.

 

[alex_]

Great quote "That wouldn't be allowed in Surrey" on the Northern Rail fiasco.

Completely ignoring that SWT have been a shitshow for decades.

 

[Teaboy]

Interesting thing about HS2 is that large sections of it are to be piled. I'm not quite sure why this is happening as we have miles and miles of railways which are not piled so why are we going to great expense of piling now?

At a guess I would suggest that its because so much of it is tunneled (Cameron not wanting to spoil the views from his mates home counties estates). Sure a lot of it will be founded on Clay but the Victorians didn't pile our existing network in the South East. Its an interesting one.

 

[alex_]

Interesting thing about HS2 is that large sections of it are to be piled. I'm not quite sure why this is happening as we have miles and miles of railways which are not piled so why are we going to great expense of piling now?

At a guess I would suggest that its because so much of it is tunneled (Cameron not wanting to spoil the views from his mates home counties estates). Sure a lot of it will be founded on Clay but the Victorians didn't pile our existing network in the South East. Its an interesting one.

Is it required for whatever the top speed of hs3 is ?

Do the french pile tgv lines.

 

[Teaboy]

Is it required for whatever the top speed of hs3 is ?

Do the french pile tgv lines.

I don't know but I would have thought the need to pile would be more to do with loading and geology. I don't know why a faster train would exert a greater load. I don't know tbh.

 

[Crispy]

"continuous slab track" as they call it is more expensive to build than ballasted travk, but cheaper in the long run due to decreased maintenance costs. It gives a smoother ride and thus lessens wear in the trains and rails.

 

[alex_]

I don't know but I would have thought the need to pile would be more to do with loading and geology. I don't know why a faster train would exert a greater load. I don't know tbh.

Didn’t realise this - but apparently hs3 is / would be faster than the TGV.

 

[Teaboy]

"continuous slab track" as they call it is more expensive to build than ballasted travk, but cheaper in the long run due to decreased maintenance costs. It gives a smoother ride and thus lessens wear in the trains and rails.

Thanks Crispy

Higher up front costs against long terms costs makes sense. Problem with piling in clay though is that it'll all need heave protection as well, its no wonder the costs are spiraling.

 

[Chilli.s]

Judging this by the re-wire of the SW railway, I have no confidence that HS2 will be achievable or cost effective to use.

 

[Teaboy]

I reckon they're already to far deep into it to stop it now. Euston is well underway and they've started on Old Oak Common now.



I reckon it'll happen to Birmingham but no further for an age.

 

[BigTom]

HS2 could be scrapped by the next PM

HS2 high speed rail project could be scrapped, Government confirms

Though sounds like it's talk around a wider review of infrastructure spending, which could lead to it being scrapped, rather than a specific review of the project itself