HS2 high-speed London-Birmingham route rail project - discussion

[alex_]

HS2 could be scrapped by the next PM

HS2 high speed rail project could be scrapped, Government confirms

Though sounds like it's talk around a wider review of infrastructure spending, which could lead to it being scrapped, rather than a specific review of the project itself

Presumably the really expensive low value London brum bit will not be cancelled and the high value lower cost brum north bit will be cancelled. To extract maximum fuckup points ?

Alex

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

.

 

[editor]

Pro-HS2 piece in the Indy:

Britain’s railways were largely built in the Victorian era, for a different kind of travel. Today, the same lines carry a mix of express intercity trains – the kind which HS2 will take – and stopping local and commuter services, the kind people use to get to work, or pop to a neighbouring town.

This mix is a very inefficient way to run a railway, for a reason that is quite obvious if you think about it: trains cannot overtake each other on the same set of tracks. They would bang into the back of one another if they tried. Not good. To get around this, local stopping trains need a large gap behind them in the timetable, so the express trains behind them do not catch up. That reduces the number of trains you can have per hour on a line, dramatically reducing its capacity for every type of service – local and express.

The engineering thinking behind HS2 is to take those express services off the older mainlines, leaving them for stopping local and commuter services. When trains are all travelling at roughly the same speed on a line, you can fit a lot more in, because the gaps needed between them are smaller.

HS2 will take express trains off the West Coast Main Line that links London with Birmingham and the cities of the northwest; the Midland Main Line that links London with the East Midlands and Sheffield; and to an extent the East Coast Main Line that goes up to Leeds and Newcastle. That frees up capacity across a huge swathe of the country for local services, and it’s the whole rationale behind the project. That the government hasn’t been explaining this ad nauseum is inexcusable.

So if the plan is to improve commuter services, why not build a new commuter line instead of a new one for expresses? It wouldn’t make sense: these existing lines are already good for slow trains, and they go into the centres of towns and cities, which have since expanded around them. A new high-speed line for expresses can make use of engineering advances since the 19th century to speed up journeys, and doesn’t have to go into as many built up areas as a local line would, where the need for tunnelling and demolitions would make it more expensive and disruptive. And making a line high-speed doesn’t actually cost that much more, either, if you’re building one anyway. But the key point is that local services benefit, despite the new line being for express trains.

HS2 will also bring other direct benefits to cities and towns that aren’t London. Northern Powerhouse Rail (stupid name) is the government’s plan to connect up the cities of the north of England with high-speed rail. It’s currently in development, but the plan, as put together by northern councils, relies on vast sections of HS2 track. Liverpool to Manchester; Sheffield to Leeds and towards York and Newcastle – these bits of NPR will use parts of HS2.

HS2 is the only option for Britain’s railways

 

[Dogsauce]

Makes sense if you ignore the fact that the WCML up to Birmingham has a set of fast lines and a set of slow lines, traffic is already segregated. Not that having a dedicated high speed line wouldn’t help with capacity, but it’s not as simplistic as made out. That argument would work better on the ECML where there are sections of only two tracks, like through Welwyn, which are serious bottlenecks.

Removing conflicts with other traffic is also highly relevant, also building a line that’s far safer for operation and maintenance (no level crossings, purpose built maintenance access, modern structures) and thus removing common causes of delay.

 

[alex_]

Makes sense if you ignore the fact that the WCML up to Birmingham has a set of fast lines and a set of slow lines, traffic is already segregated. Not that having a dedicated high speed line wouldn’t help with capacity, but it’s not as simplistic as made out. That argument would work better on the ECML where there are sections of only two tracks, like through Welwyn, which are serious bottlenecks.

But isn’t the point that on the WCML fast trains are still stopping at international, Coventry and Watford ? Which is stopping faster Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow trains.

Alex

 

[Dogsauce]

Fast WCML trains (other than those going to Birmingham) split off at Rugby to go via the Trent Valley line, so don’t go near Coventry or International. It’s just not the strongest argument really. Capacity is an issue, and also makes massively more sense for a new build line rather than upgrading existing as this would barely disrupt existing services, allow it to be built to modern standards etc.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

Completely ignoring that SWT have been a shitshow for decades.

I was thinking about HS2 today. I've not seen any new convincing arguments on it's merits. SWT aren't great (obviously at full capacity) but compared to rail commuting in the Manchester area it's paradise, that's what the CH4 documentary was underlining, the north has been really let down on rail services. If you wanted good return on investment for less than HS2 , the northern HS3 would be the best option.

 

[alex_]

I was thinking about HS2 today. I've not seen any new convincing arguments on it's merits. SWT aren't great (obviously at full capacity) but compared to rail commuting in the Manchester area it's paradise, that's the what the CH4 documentary was underlining, the north has been really let down on rail services. If you wanted good return on investment for less than HS2 , the northern HS3 would be the best option.

Yes, your second point here is really hard to argue with.

Really fast rail from Liverpool to hull, via mcr, Bradford, Leeds and hull ( with maybe a leg via York ) to make larger areas here commutable would really encourage employment. But it would also require decent local transport. A lot of the TransPennine express route is quicker by car currently, and that’s along the m62 which is crap.

one of the crappest aspects of hs2 is that the northern bit is last, and therefore more likely to be cancelled or down specified.

They should be doing hs3 first, and then hs2.

Alex

 

[Winot]

Interesting article in favour

HS2 is the only option for Britain’s railways

Would be interested in the views of those more knowledgable than I.

 

[Crispy]

Interesting article in favour

HS2 is the only option for Britain’s railways

Would be interested in the views of those more knowledgable than I.

The last 10 or so posts do just that

 

[DJWrongspeed]

Interesting article in favour

HS2 is the only option for Britain’s railways

Would be interested in the views of those more knowledgable than I.

This is what partly prompted my post. It doesn't raise the game in favour of the argument. Capacity ? Large parts of the SE England network, not the Euston line, are already at capacity and this doesn't address that.

The HS2 envisions a time when the Euston line will be at capacity at some point in the future, when? But wake up there are lots more pressing problems right now and regions crying out for investment. Betting on future rail needs is increasingly difficult I'd argue. Look at off peak tube use in London , TFL are now struggling becuase it's gone down.

 

[teuchter]

The thing about HS2 and the WCML is that they are really right at the heart of the entire network. So it doesn't entirely make sense to compare it with SE commuter routes. It's not just about getting the maximum number of commuters in and out of Euston - unlike, say, the lines in and out of Waterloo. It carries services that spread out across an enormous area of the UK and this means that when things aren't working on the WCML the repercussions spread far and wide.

Something that doesn't get mentioned much is freight. Going on for half of the UK's freight trains use the WCML during their journey. Expansion of rail freight nationwide is constrained by the WCML. If we're serious about getting long distance freight off roads and onto rail then we need to be serious about expanding the capacity of the network as a whole.

HS2 is rare in that it's a relatively bold investment in the long term future of rail in a country that for decades has been building equally disruptive motorways with little of the opposition that HS2 faces.

Almost regardless of whether the money could perhaps be better spent elsewhere on the network, the way I see it, we have to resist HS2 getting pulled. The money saved wouldn't end up being spent on improvements in the North of England. If anything it would make it less likely that such investments were properly made.

Build HS2 and it's ready for stuff to be connected to it. It's like reverse Beeching. Instead of trimming all the branches and seeing the core system atrophy... Be bold, invest in the heart of the network and hope that the benefits will spread outwards.

The anti HS2 lobby is really an anti rail lobby, I think. A certain portion of the population don't really use public transport. When they see public money being spent on roads they see it as something that benefits them. Railways are for other people.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

Thanks Teuchter. This is the kind of thing that isn't getting heard in the debate. Strategic stuff get's lost in simple messaging.

 

[alex_]

Something that doesn't get mentioned much is freight. Going on for half of the UK's freight trains use the WCML during their journey. Expansion of rail freight nationwide is constrained by the WCML. If we're serious about getting long distance freight off roads and onto rail then we need to be serious about expanding the capacity of the network as a whole.

Plus train is the only mass transit which can be ( obviously depends where the power comes from ) low carbon right now, everyone using electric cars and trucks is decades away.

Alex

 

[teuchter]

Plus train is the only mass transit which can be ( obviously depends where the power comes from ) low carbon right now, everyone using electric cars and trucks is decades away.

Alex

Yes and electric powered road vehicles don't in the slightest solve the problems of congestion and people getting killed and injured or any of the other social problems.

 

[BigTom]

Plus train is the only mass transit which can be ( obviously depends where the power comes from ) low carbon right now, everyone using electric cars and trucks is decades away.

Alex

Depends if you count trams as trains.

National express West midlands are starting trials of electric buses in Coventry and Birmingham this year, so local bus services on electric buses are not decades away but hopefully will start to be rolled out in the next 5 years. Will take decades to replace the current fleet i guess though.

 

[davesgcr]

The thing about HS2 and the WCML is that they are really right at the heart of the entire network. So it doesn't entirely make sense to compare it with SE commuter routes. It's not just about getting the maximum number of commuters in and out of Euston - unlike, say, the lines in and out of Waterloo. It carries services that spread out across an enormous area of the UK and this means that when things aren't working on the WCML the repercussions spread far and wide.

Something that doesn't get mentioned much is freight. Going on for half of the UK's freight trains use the WCML during their journey. Expansion of rail freight nationwide is constrained by the WCML. If we're serious about getting long distance freight off roads and onto rail then we need to be serious about expanding the capacity of the network as a whole.

HS2 is rare in that it's a relatively bold investment in the long term future of rail in a country that for decades has been building equally disruptive motorways with little of the opposition that HS2 faces.

Almost regardless of whether the money could perhaps be better spent elsewhere on the network, the way I see it, we have to resist HS2 getting pulled. The money saved wouldn't end up being spent on improvements in the North of England. If anything it would make it less likely that such investments were properly made.

Build HS2 and it's ready for stuff to be connected to it. It's like reverse Beeching. Instead of trimming all the branches and seeing the core system atrophy... Be bold, invest in the heart of the network and hope that the benefits will spread outwards.

The anti HS2 lobby is really an anti rail lobby, I think. A certain portion of the population don't really use public transport. When they see public money being spent on roads they see it as something that benefits them. Railways are for other people.

Good points and well made. Much protest comes from the well heeled inhabitants of the Chilterns and Warwickshire (not inner London and West London) , well connected politcally and just a bit happy with their 4x4's for access to Waitrose etc. Trains are only for commuter runs to Marylebone.

Despite the catastrophic loss of coal traffic , freight is up around 4% per annum , considerable amounts of which need to use the WCML - .........

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Good points and well made. Much protest comes from the well heeled inhabitants of the Chilterns and Warwickshire (not inner London and West London) , well connected politcally and just a bit happy with their 4x4's for access to Waitrose etc. Trains are only for commuter runs to Marylebone.

Despite the catastrophic loss of coal traffic , freight is up around 4% per annum , considerable amounts of which need to use the WCML - .........

Tbf if you live in the Chilterns and face having your peace and quiet ended forever it must be a bit of a cunt that you won’t get the chance to even use the fucking thing.

 

[alex_]

Depends if you count trams as trains.

National express West midlands are starting trials of electric buses in Coventry and Birmingham this year, so local bus services on electric buses are not decades away but hopefully will start to be rolled out in the next 5 years. Will take decades to replace the current fleet i guess though.

And will only be local.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Depends if you count trams as trains.

National express West midlands are starting trials of electric buses in Coventry and Birmingham this year, so local bus services on electric buses are not decades away but hopefully will start to be rolled out in the next 5 years. Will take decades to replace the current fleet i guess though.

Guildford’s park and ride buses are electric.

 

[Dogsauce]

Quite a few hydrogen buses about too. A good use of surplus renewable energy on windy days would be hydrogen production, depending on how efficiently it is produced.

 

[teuchter]

Tbf if you live in the Chilterns and face having your peace and quiet ended forever it must be a bit of a cunt that you won’t get the chance to even use the fucking thing.

I didn't know these people were going to be banned from using the UK rail network

 

[Badgers]

It is getting messier this isn't it?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

It’s... not good.

 

[ferrelhadley]

Paul Monaghah is a gobshite.
Seems HS2 is in more financial trouble but the rumors I have hears is that its down to property prices. Perhaps, perhaps not.

 

[Badgers]

Paul Monaghah is a gobshite.
Seems HS2 is in more financial trouble but the rumors I have hears is that its down to property prices. Perhaps, perhaps not.

Hard to find anyone who is not a gobshite commenting these days.

 

[ferrelhadley]

Hard to find anyone who is not a gobshite commenting these days.

He is from the "everything wrong with Scotland is Englands fault" wing of the SNP.
To be fair he is the kind who will be a complete seething mess about the "Central belt" being the cause of the everything wrong with the highlands the day after independence.
So his views on money not being spent on Scotland being wasted and taking the worst case numbers and adding them to the wrong mileage is par for the course.

 

[Badgers]

He is from the "everything wrong with Scotland is Englands fault" wing of the SNP.
To be fair he is the kind who will be a complete seething mess about the "Central belt" being the cause of the everything wrong with the highlands the day after independence.
So his views on money not being spent on Scotland being wasted and taking the worst case numbers and adding them to the wrong mileage is par for the course.

Fair enough. Scotland aside it is a mess though? Just a different kind of mess depending on your view.

 

[teuchter]

There are two good articles on HS2 here:

High Speed Two and the need for speed

HS2 will fail without joined-up thinking and a long-term plan

 

[MikeMcc]

Paul Monaghah is a gobshite.
Seems HS2 is in more financial trouble but the rumors I have hears is that its down to property prices. Perhaps, perhaps not.

Friends of mine are STILL fighting to get fair value for thie business that was CPOed over 18 months agao. HS2 and CBRE are complete wankers.