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How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

"Physically-resist"

Yes. In studies of victims of sexual assault including rape, some of those who displayed peri-and post-traumatic dissociation recalled reduced motor control/coordination.

You're right about dissociation but there is a difference between visual memory and episodic memory. The integrity of investigations are only as valid as the motivations of those doing the investigating. With hundreds of victims and several investigations it would be more surprising not to find inconsistencies which could be used to discredit victims and witnesse

You and I know this, even a midway-sensible first year psych student knows this, but Joe and Josephine Juryperson tend to go with the lawyer when the lawyer insinuates that inconsistent recall is due to dishonesty.

but the issue here is if a network of people used their power and connections to commit crimes and subsequently to cover them up. And that could mean anything from using legal shenannigans and media fixers to murder.

Hey, I don't disagree!
 
Does anyone know what is the position in reference to the insurance company of the council recommending they supress findings on the basis that their premiums will go up, should the report be released? A suppression based on monetary motives, is despicable, is it legal?

If investigative journalists like Watts have a clear trail, it looks like a lot of people could be implicated. There may have been those directly involved, those indirectly involved via collusion, i.e possible police suppression, in such issues as not giving all the files at the time of Waterhouse enquiry etc. Watts hints at investigations into police involvement could be huge. https://twitter.com/MarkWatts_1

Does anyone have the article in relation to the claim that not all files relating to abuse were given over to be examined at the Waterhouse enquiry?
 
Does anyone know what is the position in reference to the insurance company of the council recommending they supress findings on the basis that their premiums will go up, should the report be released? A suppression based on monetary motives, is despicable, is it legal?

It's legal. It isn't a public document, so it can be suppressed.
Bear in mind too, that this isn't just about the report suppressed on the request of an insurance company, it's about however many cases of abuse weren't examined by local authorities because of coercion by their insurers too.
 
It's legal. It isn't a public document, so it can be suppressed.
Bear in mind too, that this isn't just about the report suppressed on the request of an insurance company, it's about however many cases of abuse weren't examined by local authorities because of coercion by their insurers too.

Really? Is it legal? Insurance? Coercion? My head is spinning, the plot thickens.
 
It's legal. It isn't a public document, so it can be suppressed.
Bear in mind too, that this isn't just about the report suppressed on the request of an insurance company, it's about however many cases of abuse weren't examined by local authorities because of coercion by their insurers too.
Do you or anyone have any idea how this stands now we've got the freedom of information act?

I know you say it's not a public document, but it was commissioned and produced by a local council, so would it be worth someone making a FOI request now they've admitted to having a copy?
 
Do you or anyone have any idea how this stands now we've got the freedom of information act?

I know you say it's not a public document, but it was commissioned and produced by a local council, so would it be worth someone making a FOI request now they've admitted to having a copy?

Thats exactly what has happened, so far as I recall.
 
Do you or anyone have any idea how this stands now we've got the freedom of information act?

I know you say it's not a public document, but it was commissioned and produced by a local council, so would it be worth someone making a FOI request now they've admitted to having a copy?
Actually I was watching Wales Today last night which covered the whole scandal in Wales in more depth than the main news and I think they mentioned that someone has put/will put in a FOI request.
 
There had always been rumours about the 2 ton terror that was Cyril Smith.

Simon Danczuk, the Labour MP for Smith's former constituency in Rochdale, described him as a "29 stone bully" who "imposed himself" on his victims whom he "humiliated and terrified".
The allegations were investigated by Lancashire Police in the 1960s but no action was taken.
Mr Danczuk said some alleged victims had only now come forward in the wake of the Jimmy Savile scandal and it was time to find out "why was this allowed to happen".
Smith's brother, Norman, said he was "staggered" the MP was blackening the name of Sir Cyril, who died in 2010, adding that the police found at the time that there was no case to answer.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...th-sexually-abused-boys-MP-tells-Commons.html

Smith also appeared on Savile's "Clunk Click".
 
Really? Is it legal? Insurance? Coercion? My head is spinning, the plot thickens.

It's a private document until it is published (which it wasn't. It was printed, but that's technically a different matter to publication), and as such is covered by confidentiality legislation.
And yeah, municipal insurers have pretty much coerced local authorities into not investigating child abuse in their childrens' homes by making loud noises about how massively the insurance premiums would increase - local authorities can't operate, in any of their functions - without municipal insurance.
 
Do you or anyone have any idea how this stands now we've got the freedom of information act?

I know you say it's not a public document, but it was commissioned and produced by a local council, so would it be worth someone making a FOI request now they've admitted to having a copy?

Which has already been done (by several interested parties, I believe). :)
The issue with the report is that it was never published/released. It was commissioned and produced, as you say, and when that was done, the local authority had full rights to publish. That may not be the case now, or the local authority may claim that it isn't the case, in an effort to block having to accede to FoI requests for disclosure.
 
Which has already been done (by several interested parties, I believe). :)
The issue with the report is that it was never published/released. It was commissioned and produced, as you say, and when that was done, the local authority had full rights to publish. That may not be the case now, or the local authority may claim that it isn't the case, in an effort to block having to accede to FoI requests for disclosure.
we shall see then I suppose.

or maybe not if they then also decide they can't publish it because of the risk of libel actions, which seems pretty likely to be the case.
 
It's a private document until it is published (which it wasn't. It was printed, but that's technically a different matter to publication), and as such is covered by confidentiality legislation.
And yeah, municipal insurers have pretty much coerced local authorities into not investigating child abuse in their childrens' homes by making loud noises about how massively the insurance premiums would increase - local authorities can't operate, in any of their functions - without municipal insurance.

Well that is insane! Fucking hell, fuck that! I can believe it but is there evidence of insurance companiies compromising investigations of abuse. Apologies if I've missed it.
 
Well that is insane! Fucking hell, fuck that! I can believe it but is there evidence of insurance companiies compromising investigations of abuse. Apologies if I've missed it.

Thats what caused a storm over this in the nineties and the subsequent inquiry which was an attempt to 'make up' for the unpublished report.
 
William of Walworth said:
[yesterday]Not the slightest bit surprised that Nick Davies is keeping his investigative cards very close to his chest, it's only common sense for him for him to do so, given what Twitter, the net, other media would do if any elements of it leaked out in advance.

Agreeing strongly with free spirit's recent thoughts from those earlier ND articles -- incompetence rather than conspiracy. Again, that's only common sense really.

Corax said:
I see little difference from what's been posted to be honest. "Conspiracies" very rarely exist at all IMO, but cover-ups do. What was described sounded like cover-up to me. The motivation may be saving resources with a failure to prioritise the investigation adequately, rather than the deliberate protection of abusers. The form may be the neglect of evidence and investigation, rather than actively hiding it. But a cover-up it remains.



The thing is though, when taken over several decades, what starts as incompetence, budget restrictions etc will inevitably turn into conspiracy to at the very least keep that covered up, unless someone exposes it or you've got that rare breed of politician / management involved who cares more about truth and justice than their own careers.

This may just stay at a local level, but local politicians have a habit of ending up in westminster, so you end up with the daft situation of the leader of Islington council from 1982-92 at the time that a massive child abuse scandal was going on and being covered up (or at least not having the resources allocated to deal with it once it was reported) in its childrens homes, then ending up being appointed as the Children's Minister 10 years after she resigns from the council.

I don't think any of this starts with politicians having a meeting and deciding they're going to spend the next 30 years covering up child abuse, but I do think that they'll ignore complaints of child abuse and fail to allocate the resources needed, and get whistle blowers sacked to try to avoid there being a scandal that ruins their careers, then spend the rest of their careers conspiring to cover up for the fact that they allowed this to happen on their watch, and if that means that child abusers get to carry on abusing kids in the process... well that's just the price of a successful political career, and they're only scummer kids anyway, so it's all for the greater good eh what.

That's roughly how I see it working, and if they're involved in the masons or other clubs, then they'll use their connections within them to assist them in their arse covering.

That's just the politicians not doing their jobs properly then covering their arses side of things.

The paedophiles themselves have obviously got a hell of a lot more to hide, and from the sheer number of cases over the years that involve networks of (proven and alleged) dozens of paedophiles being active in an area / around a hub (or apparently in Savile and others cases several areas) for decades, there's got to be a fair old conspiracy of silence going on there. As paedophilia isn't confined to the working class, probability alone dictates that there almost certainly will be a fair number of paedophiles high enough up in society both in local government and judiciary terms, or central government and civil service to make active conspiracies from participants at those levels to be more likely than not IMO.

Essentially this whole idea of paedophiles generally being loners, which is / was the guiding principle on which child protection policy in this country has been based for decades, just doesn't fit with the evidence from the cases I quoted last night and the many others that have come out over the years. If these instances of long term endemic paedophile activity are to be tackled properly much earlier in future, then I reckon the starting point is to recognise this and then consider the changes in the scales of investigative resources and support this entails if it's to be tackled.

It's not enough to be reactive when investigating paedophile activity, they need to go after it as if they're taking down mafia organisations, using one paedophile to lead them through the network and take the entire network down - as they did in the Bristol investigation which resulted in 60 paedophiles being uncovered from the starting point of one building (which had basically been ignored for years before despite several reports being received about it).

eta - this is something that does seem to have been improving over the last 10-15 years, but is the exact opposite of what the government is now proposing to do as they're ripping up the current safeguarding protocol and replacing it with something much less detailed.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/social-care-network/2012/nov/09/child-protection-guidance-under-threat

Interesting responses, thankyou.

I certainly wouldn't deny there've been cover ups, and yes the point at which a cover up becomes more or less a determination by those in charge to keep things swept under the carpet, or at least reluctant to open up too many cans of worms, is pretty moot in all this.

I suppose the fact that 'conspiracy' has become such a tainted concept on here (and correctly so often, what with so much in the way of crazy theorising on well dodgy sites being quoted) was why I posted as I did yesterday .... and we all know how much CTers are jumping on all these scandals and over speculating/over extrapolating from them.
 
Apologies if this has been mentioned before (i cant recall it but there's a lot of info on here!) but I noticed this from a Mirror article (mentioned elsewhere also)
PIE, which is now outlawed, also had links with another BBC presenter who was investigated over child sex allegations in the late 80s.
Like Savile, the unnamed star was accused of using a charity as a cover to abuse vulnerable children.
The charity was set up by a PIE member in the 80s, offering yachting classes to vulnerable and underprivileged children.
The BBC presenter was investigated after police became aware of allegations he was abusing boys during sailing trips.
No charges were ever brought against the star for reasons that remain unclear.
A child protection source said yesterday: “The presenter was going out on a boat with vulnerable children and a leading former member of PIE.
“The charity was being used as a way of taking indecent pictures of the boys and there was also physical abuse occurring.”
 
Interesting responses, thankyou.

I certainly wouldn't deny there've been cover ups, and yes the point at which a cover up becomes more or less a determination by those in charge to keep things swept under the carpet, or at least reluctant to open up too many cans of worms, is pretty moot in all this.

I suppose the fact that 'conspiracy' has become such a tainted concept on here (and correctly so often, what with so much in the way of crazy theorising on well dodgy sites being quoted) was why I posted as I did yesterday .... and we all know how much CTers are jumping on all these scandals and over speculating/over extrapolating from them.

Cover-up, conspiracy - same thing right?
 
Cover-up, conspiracy - same thing right?

Sometimes ... I'm not going to be the one to say when, though!

I started off agreeing with an earlier post by freespirit though, when he posted from older Nick Davies articles. Both Nick Davies and FS were as I saw it saying that huge levels of incompetence were highly important. And I was agreeing with that yesterday.
 
Actually did it? Not sure what you mean.

Well I was slightly simplifying the pciture of the time, but Im not sure which bit you are unsure about. The point was that there was public disquiet about previous reports not being published, and in the end they decided the only way to deal with it was to have an inquiry. And it was mentioned that it was insurers who scuppered the publication of the Jillings report, this isnt new info but obviously its getting more attention now than it probably did back then.

For example this article from 2000:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/642704.stm

But the victims' hopes that the full story would come out were dashed when the Jillings Report remained under wraps following advice from the council's insurers.

That report named abusers and those considered negligent in failing to stop their activities.

Lacked the will

Those criticised included the Welsh Office's Social Services Inspectorate for lacking the will to police local authorities in Wales.

Finally in 1996, William Hague - then Welsh Secretary - decided a full public inquiry was the only way of quelling public disquiet. The North Wales Child Abuse Tribunal - chaired by Sir Ronald Waterhouse - was established.
 
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