How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

[teqniq]

Well ok then but the Jimmy Saville thread is thataway>>>

 

[MadCatLady]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/11/david-mellor-steve-messham-weirdo

Thank goodness someone is pointing out that this is about children being abused and disbelieved and not about the reputation or management of the BBC. Let us not forget that vulnerable children are being abused right now in 2012, so what message is Mellor's comment sending to them? Irresponsible, thoughtless and downright heartless. Let's hope he is pressured to retract/apologise for his (careless at best, malicious & harmful at worst) slur of Messham.
Jeeeeezus do these people not realise or care about the implications of their words?

 

[ayatollah]

The masons, the wrong Lord, the Schofield list, the embarrassment of Newsnight - so many strands taking the focus away from the main issue that dozens, maybe hundreds of children have been abused over decades and that high profile people have been involved. It's incredible that the Mail is giving two pages to the trashing of Messham, with numerous other papers giving their column inches to criticising Newsnight, the BBC etc
At the risk of sounding like a frustrated teenaged I want to scream HELLO WORLD has everyone forgotten that jimmy savile is accused of abusing dozens of young people and that he ws the close friend and confidante of govt, royalty and so many senior figures. What kind of alternate universe are we living in when an abuse victim whose life has been scarred from such an early age is being asked to make public apologies and being trashed publicly for the challenging events in his broken life???
You guys on this blog have been making soooooo many excellent connections and focusing not the real facts, please keep up the good work and use your knowledge, experience and connections to make sure this doesn't go away.

I think you've made a typo on the third to the last line , the actual word intended presumeably being "on" rather than "not", as in "focussing ON the real facts" .If so.. I agree.

The eternal willingness/predeliction of local and national press to simply make up entirely brass-necked bogus "evidence" to fit the "news" into the pro establishment propaganda "narrative " , will be familiar to any Leftie or active trades unionist. Nothing to do with the abuse scandal, but I always chuckle at that news treatment of a lobby outside of Transport House during the 1975 ( ? thereabouts) Firefighters Strike. TUC bigwigs (and some snydie national status BBC reporter-- John Sissons ?) were being barracked for their usual treachery by a horde of uniformed Firemen. The BBC and press next day claimed it was all done by " outside extremists simply dressed up in Firemen's uniforms" ! Or the 1979 (thereabouts) anti NF riot in Leicester in which 80 anti fascists were arrested, but the fascists were bricked to fuck, and the anti fascists engaged in quite surprisingly successful hand to hand fisticuffs with the police at times. All just so surprising and worrying to the local Leicester News rag that it authoritatively asserted that the entire event had been organised in military fashion by "battle hardened especially imported French street fighters ! " (See the real story in "No Retreat").

The entire capitalist press will be in full attack dog mode from now on to, muddy the water, sow confusion, and of course crucify the credibility of the witnesses/victims. This story is too big, and exposes the rottenness of the entire ruling class and their state agents too vividly, for it to be allowed to run on as it has been doing. It'll be interesting to see how far they'll go to get it back "under control" ,until Joe Public gets bored and moves on to another issue more amenable to the ruling class agendas.

 

[Corax]

Well ok then but the Jimmy Saville thread is thataway>>>

I posted about a Saville development on this thread too earlier. That was a deliberate decision - there's a likelihood that all these things/people are interconnected. Not in some 'vast conspiracy' way, just that the worlds of rich and powerful individuals cross professional boundaries. Especially if those people have a shared interest in abusing boys from care homes.

 

[MadCatLady]

I think you've made a typo on the third to the last line , the actual word intended presumeably being "on" rather than "not", as in "focussing ON the real facts" .If so.. I agree.

The eternal willingness/predeliction of local and national press to simply make up entirely brass-necked bogus "evidence" to fit the "news" into the pro establishment propaganda "narrative " , will be familiar to any Leftie or active trades unionist. Nothing to do with the abuse scandal, but I always chuckle at that news treatment of a lobby outside of Transport House during the 1975 ( ? thereabouts) Firefighters Strike. TUC bigwigs (and some snydie national status BBC reporter-- John Sissons ?) were being barracked for their usual treachery by a horde of uniformed Firemen. The BBC and press next day claimed it was all done by " outside extremists simply dressed up in Firemen's uniforms" ! Or the 1979 (thereabouts) anti NF riot in Leicester in which 80 anti fascists were arrested, but the fascists were bricked to fuck, and the anti fascists engaged in quite surprisingly successful hand to hand fisticuffs with the police at times. All just so surprising and worrying to the local Leicester News rag that it authoritatively asserted that the entire event had been organised in military fashion by "battle hardened especially imported French street fighters ! " (See the real story in "No Retreat").

The entire capitalist press will be in full attack dog mode from now on to, muddy the water, sow confusion, and of course crucify the credibility of the witnesses/victims. This story is too big, and exposes the rottenness of the entire ruling class and their state agents too vividly, for it to be allowed to run on as it has been doing. It'll be interesting to see how far they'll go to get it back "under control" ,until Joe Public gets bored and moves on to another issue more amenable to the ruling class agendas.

Yep, was typo/over enthusiastic auto spell thing, thanks for spotting.

 

[kenny g]

is an amusing episode of Jim'll fix it where Cliff Richard hides with a girl in a telephone engineers tent whilst she had gone out shopping. Shows the real innocence of the age.

 

[free spirit]

From around the start of the 20th century-onward (hard to believe, I know). It's kind of a running joke with the rest of the print media that most political stories that cite "sources" but don't say "...close to" a key protagonist in the story have usually been laid off on the journo by a friendly spook. Private Eye too, throughout their history, have constantly taken the piss out of the Telegraph for being such a willing, uncritical conduit.

I meant what period did they start reporting the welsh abuse cases in, as in when would their reporter have potentially been in the area to show the kids these photos.

Unfortunately google doesn't go that far back, so I don't really know how to check, though they weren't parties of the original libel trial, which makes me think they're less likely candidates than someone who was.

I'm also struggling a bit tbh with trying to work out why the spooks would have wanted to put Lord McAlipe's name in the frame even if they were involved. It seems a bit of an odd thing for them to do at that stage in proceedings.

you could be right, but I'd find it hard to see this as the more likely scenario tbh.

Possibly because you don't appear to be applying much scepticism (in the old-fashioned sense of the word) to those pieces you're looking at.

if you ignore all the bits where I make clear my scepticism about some of these sources, and explain the fact that it's virtually impossible to really verify them one way or another, but that I've tried to verify the bits that can be checked, then I'd entirely agree with your point. Perhaps I need to put the same disclaimer on every post, but from now on please take it as read that if I've made that sort of disclaimer about a source once, then it applies from that point onwards until I say otherwise.

*Assuming the article credited to regan actually was written by regan, which is a bit hard to check given he's no longer with us. I'm making no claims for the veracity of his statements, just putting him out there as a likely candidate for being the journalist in question given his claims about having interviewed 12 of the victims and them having supported his claims, one of which was about McAlpine.

AFAIK I'm the only one who was sceptical enough about that PEBPR website that article is hosted on to bother trawling through internet records to determine that while the articles posted are mostly dated to a decade or more ago, the website itself almost certainly only went live towards the back end of September just days before the Jimmy Savile story broke.

It seems I'm the only one who thinks that's a wee bit suspicious seeing as nobody commented when I mentioned it.

 

[MadCatLady]

Looks like Mellor & the Mail's spiteful attack on Messham is getting panned across the MSM ad well as twitter. First he Guardian, now the Independent

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-victims-are--and-listen-to-them-8304858.html

 

[elbows]

AFAIK I'm the only one who was sceptical enough about that PEBPR website that article is hosted on to bother trawling through internet records to determine that while the articles posted are mostly dated to a decade or more ago, the website itself almost certainly only went live towards the back end of September just days before the Jimmy Savile story broke.

It seems I'm the only one who thinks that's a wee bit suspicious seeing as nobody commented when I mentioned it.

What exactly did you base that on?

Because if you look at individual articles on that site you will see that dates form part of the urls, eg /2010/05/whatever

Or taking a different approach, the blog archive sidebar seems to have the posts listed under July 2009.

 

[MadCatLady]

"Instead copies of the report were ordered to be destroyed because the council that commissioned it feared it might be sued, The Independent on Sunday can reveal. Only a handful remain, including one obtained by this newspaper"

Has anyone heard anything else since this article? What the IoS intends to do with its copy of the supposedly all pulped reports?
And whether it can be used to corroborate victims claims?
Strange the way no one has gone after the insurance company that demanded the report be pulped to find out how true that claim is.

 

[Buckaroo]

Well ok then but the Jimmy Saville thread is thataway>>>

Well ok then but Saville was obviously high level in some sense but any connection to Wales, Wrexham or Waterhouse or that he was part of a singular network? Connected true too to other abusers and enablers but I don't think much of the idea that he was MI5 cleared in noncery in order to compromise BBC employees...but then I don't know anything because I'm an idiot.

 

[teqniq]

Well ok then but Saville was obviously high level in some sense but any connection to Wales, Wrexham or Waterhouse or that he was part of a singular network? Connected true too to other abusers and enablers but I don't think much of the idea that he was MI5 cleared in noncery in order to compromise BBC employees...but then I don't know anything because I'm an idiot.

Lol I was being a tad facetious with that post, please ignore it.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Apols if we've had this, seems important and interesting.

It's a hit piece on the Blackshirt hitpiece on Messam's false accusations based on Police misinformation.

http://tompride.wordpress.com/2012/...s-just-who-is-daily-mail-reporter-david-rose/

 

[Treacle Toes]

@taffboy

David Rose's interesting career goes all the way back to 1985. http://www.searchlight.org.uk/o-hara/tricks.html … This is the man who smeared #Messham today

 

[audiotech]

Or the 1979 (thereabouts) anti NF riot in Leicester in which 80 anti fascists were arrested, but the fascists were bricked to fuck, and the anti fascists engaged in quite surprisingly successful hand to hand fisticuffs with the police at times. All just so surprising and worrying to the local Leicester News rag that it authoritatively asserted that the entire event had been organised in military fashion by "battle hardened especially imported French street fighters ! "

They would have been extremely useful in assisting us in repelling an attack on our coach at an M1 service station, by a coachload of NF heavies, who were clearly severely pissed-off by the days events, but sadly nope. They must have been busy elsewhere. In France perhaps?

 

[kenny g]

[David Rose's interesting career goes all the way back to 1985. http://www.searchlight.org.uk/o-hara/tricks.html … This is the man who smeared #Messham today [/quote]

Good digging- I thought I recognised the name but couldn't find anything online to back my suspicions.

ETA Oh well - noticed it is on ian bone's blog

 

[free spirit]

What exactly did you base that on?

Because if you look at individual articles on that site you will see that dates form part of the urls, eg /2010/05/whatever

Or taking a different approach, the blog archive sidebar seems to have the posts listed under July 2009.

no record in the way back when record, no links to the blog until september 2012 listed in Alexa, no google cache at the time I checked, though there is now.

It's a simple thing to fake the entry dates on a blog, virtually impossible to fake the dates of links in outside databases such as Alexa, and a site like that that was up since July 2009 would be incredibly unlikely to not have generated any links to it until september 2012 even from the conspiraloon sites IMO.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

http://ricosorda.blogspot.co.uk/

 

[1%er]

is an amusing episode of Jim'll fix it where Cliff Richard hides with a girl in a telephone engineers tent whilst she had gone out shopping. Shows the real innocence of the age.

Careful now, that's another British institution you're talking about

 

[Corax]

Good digging- I thought I recognised the name but couldn't find anything online to back my suspicions.

You may recognise the name for another reason too. It was one of Hari's pseudonyms IIRC.

 

[audiotech]

Re author of DM article:

David Rose's interesting career goes all the way back to 1985. http://www.searchlight.org.uk/o-hara/tricks.html … This is the man who smeared #Messham today

Is that some fascist run site you've linked to? Try the home page and you'll see what I mean.

 

[DJ Squelch]

Good article here - Media hysteria creates a new set of victims
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/11/media-hysteria-child-abuse-savile

Confronted with evidence of children being violated, even reputable newspapers, broadcasters and journalists often lose all sense of judgment and proportion. Lord McAlpine is not alone in being smeared over the abuse that undoubtedly took place in north Wales children's homes. In the early 1990s several publications (including the Independent on Sunday, where I held a senior position) named a senior retired police officer who later sued successfully for libel. The guilty media organisations are often precisely those who campaign assiduously against miscarriages of justice. Yet there is evidence that, in some cases, innocent people have received long prison sentences for child abuse.

Child abuse is a reality and, in the past, the full extent of it was often swept under the carpet. The guilty still at liberty far outnumber the innocent behind bars. In nearly all the instances I list above, children were abused, sometimes in large numbers. They suffered terrible trauma, and the effects were often lifelong. To point out that journalists – along with politicians and professionals such as social workers – strayed into wild fantasies is not to defend or trivialise abuse. Nor does questioning some convictions denote "support" for paedophilia, any more than questioning the Birmingham Six convictions denoted "support" for IRA bombers.

At last someone addressing the fact that the media led hysteria may lead to people being wrongly convicted. How many more like Messham are there out there making false allegations, whether maliciously or mistakenly, not against Lords or top policemen but ordinary care workers or teachers. People whose story won't merit a Newsnight investigation or yards of print media to see if the claims might be unsafe.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200102/cmselect/cmhaff/836/2051404.htm

 

[Treacle Toes]

Is that some fascist run site you've linked to? Try the home page and you'll see what I mean.

Not purposely no! Was just adding a tweet that I saw today about the DM article author. :/

 

[kenny g]

Is that some fascist run site you've linked to? Try the home page and you'll see what I mean.

http://searchlight.nfshost.com/o-hara/ is not fascist - it is a U75 poster, Mr Larry O'hara's site.

 

[audiotech]

Not purposely no! Was just adding a tweet that I saw today about the DM article author. :/

Well the tweet included a link to some bizarre spoof site at least.

 

[audiotech]

http://searchlight.nfshost.com/o-hara/ is not fascist - it is a U75 poster, Mr Larry O'hara's site.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Treacle Toes]

'

 

[elbows]

no record in the way back when record, no links to the blog until september 2012 listed in Alexa, no google cache at the time I checked, though there is now.

It's a simple thing to fake the entry dates on a blog, virtually impossible to fake the dates of links in outside databases such as Alexa, and a site like that that was up since July 2009 would be incredibly unlikely to not have generated any links to it until september 2012 even from the conspiraloon sites IMO.

I think you overestimate how likely unknown sites are to be picked up by other sites, bloggers, crap stats websites etc. Alexa doesnt start to log stuff until the site has a certain amount of attention.

As for faking dates, depends on the system. Its a blogspot site, so the user doesnt have complete freedom like they would if it was, for example,a self-hosted wordpress site.

I signed up to blogspot to see how it handles dates. You can change the dates for posts, but this only seems to be reflected in certain ways. From my research so far I think its quite likely that the dates were changed to 2009 by the blogger. However the urls still reflect the actual date the stuff was posted. So If I were forced to state a date that the posts were made, it would be May 2010.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

"Instead copies of the report were ordered to be destroyed because the council that commissioned it feared it might be sued, The Independent on Sunday can reveal. Only a handful remain, including one obtained by this newspaper"

Has anyone heard anything else since this article? What the IoS intends to do with its copy of the supposedly all pulped reports?
And whether it can be used to corroborate victims claims?
Strange the way no one has gone after the insurance company that demanded the report be pulped to find out how true that claim is.

Presumably insurance companies looking after shareholder value are immune from culpability for covering up child rape the exposure of which was considered bad for business, as this forms part of the normal workings of capitalism.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Good digging- I thought I recognised the name but couldn't find anything online to back my suspicions.

ETA Oh well - noticed it is on ian bone's blog

It is sort of interesting that this guy is a disinformation specialist and smear artist aligned to the secret state, rather than the regular Tory party.

I am resisting the temptation to mention Kincora ... whoops ... oh well.