How do Icons die? how do stars fade and cease to be?

[Reno]

Not sure about Clift. Can't remember any films of his. Wouldn't recognise him. There's probably a You Must Remember This podcast about him.
Speaking of which, y'all should listen to it if you're interested in these icons. The last one I heard was about Ida Lupino, who I think It would be correct to describe as a forgotten icon. Then there's actors such as Kay Francis and Robert Taylor and endless others who were matinee idols but pretty much forgotten these days

Clift has been in more films that I love than James Dean and Marlon Brando combined but I agree, he is not as iconic a star as the were/are. I've always been a huge fan of his though. He predates them as the first of the stars who were method actors, but his performances were never as showy than theirs. The Search, A Place in the Sun, Far From Eternity, Terminal Station, I Confess, The Heiress, Red a River, Suddenly Last Summer, Wild River, The Misfits and Freud are all great or at least very interesting and often unusual Hollywod films.

You Must Remember This is brilliant, it's as good as anything on classic Hollywood ever written. Karina Longworth has a knack for digging out the far more complex truth behind the myths and legends. The current series is on Joan Crawford and she makes a great case for her having been far more than the camp harpy Mommie Dearest turned her into. Every episode of that podcast is a highlight of the week for me.

 

[Idris2002]

View attachment 91813

Louise Brooks, a silent movie actress who had a relatively brief career and only appeared in a handful of films, is now more far famous than all of the bigger female stars of the era. She now is considered a timeless style icon who gets referenced in film and fashion and is much imitated. Watching her films now, she comes across as incredibly contemporary in her naturalisitic acting style and in her personality. She makes most of her contemporaries look theatrical and old fashioned. Unlike many other stars of the period, her type of beauty doesn't look of another time, she would still be considered beautiful now.

She didn't even have to die young to become an icon. She faded into obscurity during the 30s, had a pretty rough life, got rediscovered in the late 50s and then with he help of a benefactor who rescued her from poverty, she reinvented herself as a writer and died an old woman.

And I was about to ask if she was the star whose career was torpedoed by the talkies, because of her squeaky voice - but that was Theda Barlow, wasn't it?

Anyway, I was surprised and gratified to see how this one took off. I didn't expect to have four pages by morning, so thank you all.

 

[Sprocket.]

I can thoroughly recommend Patricia Bosworth's biography of Montgomery Clift.
I first became aware of it when Joe Strummer no less got out of the Volkswagen van they went everywhere in clutching a copy.

This was in 78, behind the Assembly rooms in Derby. Our Jed said 'what you reading Joe? and he went on to tell us that he thought it the best biography he had read!
When the London Calling album came out in 79, there was the track The Right Profile, a tribute to Clift.
Clift's films are regularly on TCM by the way.

 

[Reno]

And I was about to ask if she was the star whose career was torpedoed by the talkies, because of her squeaky voice - but that was Theda Barlow, wasn't it?

Anyway, I was surprised and gratified to see how this one took off. I didn't expect to have four pages by morning, so thank you all.

Her voice was fine, there are a few low budget talkies she made (one was an early John Wayne B-movie western) during her career decline. She was making her best films in Weimar Germany and refused to come back to Hollywood to post-synchronise a not very good film which got turned from a silent film to a talkie. After that she got blacklisted by the studio and then was mostly offered dross. After the couple of silent masterpieces she made in Germany (Diary of a Lost Girl, Pandora's Box) she didn't care for the films Hollywood offered her on her return and she turned down a lot of work till none was offered anymore. What followed was a decline into alcolism and prostitution till she got rediscovered and rescued by a kindly film historian.

There were silent stars who had strong foreign accents who didn't manage the transition to talkies, but the idea that many had unsuitable or squeaky voices has been exaggerated and comes from Singin' in the Rain. A lot of silent actors for whom that myth persists had perfectly fine voices.

 

[Idris2002]

Her voice was fine, there are a few low budget talkies she made (one was an early John Wayne B-movie western) during her career decline. She was making her best films in Weimar Germany and refused to come back to Hollywood to post-synchronise a not very good film which got turned from a silent film to a talkie. After that she got blacklisted by the studio and then was mostly offered dross. After the couple of silent masterpieces she made in Germany (Diary of a Lost Girl, Pandora's Box) she didn't care for the films Hollywood offered her on her return and she turned down a lot of work till none was offered anymore.

There were silent stars who had strong foreign accents who didn't manage the transition to talkies, but the idea that many had unsuitable or squeaky voices has been exaggerated and comes from Singin' in the Rain. A lot of silent actors for whom that myth persists had perfectly fine voices.

I defer as always to your expert knowledge!

 

[Reno]

For anybody interested in Louise Brooks, this is an excellent book of essays she wrote about her Hollywood contemporaries:



...and this is an great biography about her tubulent life and career:

I can thoroughly recommend Patricia Bosworth's biography of Montgomery Clift.
I first became aware of it when Joe Strummer no less got out of the Volkswagen van they went everywhere in clutching a copy.
View attachment 91821
This was in 78, behind the Assembly rooms in Derby. Our Jed said 'what you reading Joe? and he went on to tell us that he thought it the best biography he had read!
When the London Calling album came out in 79, there was the track The Right Profile, a tribute to Clift.
Clift's films are regularly on TCM by the way.

Great biography !

Clift and Brooks both lead lives with more drama than many of the films they appeared in.

 

[Reno]

Trying to edit a post with pictures is a fucker on an old iPad !

 

[Idris2002]

There was a Ken Russell biopic in the 70s which flopped

I can't imagine why.

 

[D'wards]

Laurel and Hardy surely - because they were, and are, flipping funny.
When I was a kid in the 80s they used to show their films all the time during the holidays and we'd literally roar at the telly during the tense bits, and in fits at the funny bits.
Not sure if kids today get to see them though

 

[Sea Star]

Are the ghost busters an icon now?

 

[Cid]

Are the ghost busters an icon now?

They certainly are now in the sense of 'at this time', whether they remain so is another matter... There are a number of kid's films from the 80s and early 90s that could be considered iconic, but there's the fairly obvious factor that people who grew up with those films are now 30s-late 40s. It does seem to be something of a golden age, but maybe that's just rose-tinted backward specs. I'm sure not all children's films of the last 20 years are irredeemable pap.

 

[Reno]

They certainly are now in the sense of 'at this time', whether they remain so is another matter... There are a number of kid's films from the 80s and early 90s that could be considered iconic, but there's the fairly obvious factor that people who grew up with those films are now 30s-late 40s. It does seem to be something of a golden age, but maybe that's just rose-tinted backward specs. I'm sure not all children's films of the last 20 years are irredeemable pap.

People who are in their 30s and 40s seem to be almost aggressively nostalgic about their childhood entertainment, which is different from generations before. I don't think the 80s and 90s were a golden age for family films. I rewatched Ghostbusters recently which just confirmed my original impression that it isn't a terribly good film. The apparent Citizen Kane of kids films from that era, The Goonies, is an unwatchably awful film for anybody over the age of 12 which rightly got terrible reviews then, but now the Internet keeps shouting at me that it's some sort of masterpiece. This intense insistence on nostalgia also has to do with that Hollywood doesn't make films for adults anymore. All these superhero movies and franchise films are made for adult children.

 

[Cid]

People who are in their 30s and 40s seem to be almost aggressively nostalgic about their childhood entertainment, which is different from generations before. I don't think the 80s and 90s were a golden age for family films. I rewatched Ghostbusters recently which just confirmed my original impression that it isn't a terribly good film. The apparent Citizen Kane of kids films from that era, The Goonies, is an unwatchably awful film for anybody over the age of 12 which rightly got terrible reviews then, but now the Internet keeps shouting at me that it's some sort of masterpiece. This intense insistence on nostalgia also has to do with that Hollywood doesn't make films for adults anymore. All these superhero movies and franchise films are made for adult children.

The Goonies is an odd one. I think it sort of became cool to say it was your favourite movie from that era, not sure anyone actually got round to re-watching it. Films like that can also be considerably better when you're very stoned, which might explain part of it. Certainly I think it's one of the worse films of that period.

I'm not really sure how many of my favourite childhood films are actually children's films; Princess Bride, Gremlins, Back to the future etc. And Gilliam. Obvious stuff would be Labyrinth, Neverending Story, stand by me, ET, Willow, Flight of the Navigator... I suspect much of it wouldn't hold up to a re-watch. It's also difficult to know what age bracket is watching what now, or what age I was when I watched any of those films.

 

[Reno]

The Goonies is an odd one. I think it sort of became cool to say it was your favourite movie from that era, not sure anyone actually got round to re-watching it. Films like that can also be considerably better when you're very stoned, which might explain part of it. Certainly I think it's one of the worse films of that period.

I'm not really sure how many of my favourite childhood films are actually children's films; Princess Bride, Gremlins, Back to the future etc. And Gilliam. Obvious stuff would be Labyrinth, Neverending Story, stand by me, ET, Willow, Flight of the Navigator... I suspect much of it wouldn't hold up to a re-watch. It's also difficult to know what age bracket is watching what now, or what age I was when I watched any of those films.

Most of these type of films would be considered family films, because they are made to appeal to children while also entertaining adults. Children's films is stuff that is made to only appeal to younger children, like a Thomas the Tank Engine feature and things like that.

Some of these you listed are good films, others are middling and The Neverending Story is another so called classic which I find unwatchably awful, but then I loved the novel and I've always been upset by how the films is a seriously dumbed down version of a great novel.

 

[Idris2002]

Elvis

Too young to tell. First generation fans are still in their 40s

The rules for music stars are different and that's what Elvis primarily was. It only takes three minutes to listen to a pop song, a film takes more of a commitment.

Well, David Quantick is arguing here that Mrs. Presley's boy is definitely on the way out as an icon:



Good thread, by the way.

 

[killer b]

Well, David Quantick is arguing here that Mrs. Presley's boy is definitely on the way out as an icon:



Good thread, by the way.

there's an interesting section about Elvis' fading popularity in this article about heritage artists selling their back catalogues - the whole piece is worth a read

 

[krtek a houby]

Odd, that. Was just reading about him today (in a history of rock and roll context).

Was thinking about how the genre (including rockabilly) just isn't as popular as it used to be.

Or, rather, it is popular with those who love it, but their numbers are diminishing through the ravages of time.

 

[Steel Icarus]

And I was about to ask if she was the star whose career was torpedoed by the talkies, because of her squeaky voice - but that was Theda Barlow, wasn't it?

You mean Theda Bara

 

[[62]]

I find myself constantly* having to explain who Arthur Askey is.

'You know, like Arthur Atkinson off the Fast Show...'

'Arthur Who off the What?'

(*Slight exaggeration)

 

[Reno]

Well, David Quantick is arguing here that Mrs. Presley's boy is definitely on the way out as an icon:



Good thread, by the way.

That's probably the case for all the mid-century cultural icons. Marilyn Monroe was long considered the most iconic of female movie stars, but who still knows about her but older film buffs ? I have friends my age (late 50s) who still are Elvis fans but not anybody much younger. Today a girl in her 20s in a Nirvana T-Shirt sat opposite me on the train and that's probably as far as pop cultural consciousness reaches back now. That's not a moan btw, it's understandable.

 

[Idris2002]

My mum used to watch the Bowery Boys in the old cinema in Bandon. Totally forgotten now.

 

[killer b]

Marilyn Monroe was long considered the most iconic of female movie stars, but who still knows about her but older film buffs ?

My teenager knows about Monroe - I think she's popular among some of the youth as a 'woman shaped' female icon, in comparison to modern super-toned filmstars etc

 

[Reno]

My teenager knows about Monroe - I think she's popular among some of the youth as a 'woman shaped' female icon, in comparison to modern super-toned filmstars etc

No doubt there is a percentage of young people who is clued in on mid-century pop culture. No doubt there also are teens who like Elivs but I believe they are a small minority which is getting smaller. Whenever I mention classic films from the 20th century to friends in their 30s and younger, unless it's Star Wars or film is their particular interest, there is little awareness of those films.

 

[Idris2002]

No doubt there is a percentage of young people who is clued in on mid-century pop culture. No doubt there also are teens who like Elivs but I believe they are a small minority which is getting smaller. Whenever I mention classic films from the 20th century to friends in their 30s and younger, unless it's Star Wars or film is their particular interest, there is little awareness of those films.

My niece is doing a film training course - practical stuff on how to work on a set, but also cinema history and that. I asked her if she'd seen old movies for her work, and she said "oh yes - like the Shawshank Redemption".

 

[killer b]

No doubt there is a percentage of young people who is clued in on mid-century pop culture. No doubt there also are teens who like Elivs but I believe they are a small minority which is getting smaller. Whenever I mention classic films from the 20th century to friends in their 30s and younger, unless it's Star Wars or film is their particular interest, there is little awareness of those films.

I don't think they know the films (although I showed the kids Some Like It Hot recently and they loved it) - it's more that Monroe lives on through body-positive memes - Girls, you can be size 14 and sexy, just like Marilyn! etc. CF. Hedy Lamarr, who was an obscure figure in my youth, but has recently become something of a feminist icon due to her several-stages removed connection with the invention of Bluetooth

 

[Reno]

I don't think they know the films (although I showed the kids Some Like It Hot recently and they loved it) - it's more that Monroe lives on through body-positive memes - Girls, you can be size 14 and sexy, just like Marilyn! etc. CF. Hedy Lamarr, who was an obscure figure in my youth, but has recently become something of a feminist icon due to her several-stages removed connection with the invention of Bluetooth

True, the Hedy Lamar story has been making the rounds on social media for a few years, because it's so extraordinary, but also because it's relevant to modern technology.

The relatively obscure 50s fetish model Betty Page became a style icon for hipster girls a couple of decades ago, but it was really just her look which became famous. I can see that Monroe and other classic movie stars can be influential in a similar way via youtube fashion and make-up tutorials. I still think she isn't quite the icon she still was by the end of the 20th century.

 

[Sue]

I don't think they know the films (although I showed the kids Some Like It Hot recently and they loved it) - it's more that Monroe lives on through body-positive memes - Girls, you can be size 14 and sexy, just like Marilyn! etc. CF. Hedy Lamarr, who was an obscure figure in my youth, but has recently become something of a feminist icon due to her several-stages removed connection with the invention of Bluetooth

Years ago, I saw one of Monroe's dresses from SLIH at the Museum of the Moving Image. It was tiny and certainly not a size 14 as we know it...

Spread spectrum. If you haven't seen Bombshell: The Hedy Lamarr Story - Wikipedia, it's worth a watch. (And she is of course 'namechecked' in Blazing Saddles .)

 

[krtek a houby]

No doubt there is a percentage of young people who is clued in on mid-century pop culture. No doubt there also are teens who like Elivs but I believe they are a small minority which is getting smaller. Whenever I mention classic films from the 20th century to friends in their 30s and younger, unless it's Star Wars or film is their particular interest, there is little awareness of those films.

Yeah.

When mentioned to a colleague in London that was a fan of silent films and attended screenings with live accompanied music, he was shocked.

Why do you like that shit, was the burning question.

 

[tim]

I can't imagine that many picture goers in the 1930s would have imagined that 80 years on Clarke Gable would be virtually forgotten but that George Formby and the little ukele in his hand would still have legions of fans.

There are four pages of posts here about Gable and fifteen about Formby, admittedly that does include quite a few posts from Spymaster 's adventures with his grill.


Turned out nice again!

 

[Reno]

Yeah.

When mentioned to a colleague in London that was a fan of silent films and attended screenings with live accompanied music, he was shocked.

Why do you like that shit, was the burning question.

I went to many of those at the Barbican and the BFI and I miss them. Here in Berlin we have one cinema which does that, but its nearly always Metropolis, a film which I don't even like much.