How do Icons die? how do stars fade and cease to be?

[Sea Star]

I didn't know the man but I was in awe of his work. And in awe of my wife who went to 2 Bowie gigs!

I went to two Bowie gigs. Wish I'd managed more

 

[krtek a houby]

Just listing random star names is getting boring. At least say why do you think they are more likely to last than the many equally famous stars of the period.

Oh, sorry! I didn't realise there were specifics for this. Ok; I think Bruce Lee is lasting because he was one of the first Asian martial arts actors to take the world by storm and popularise the genre. And everybody knows who BL is, whether they've seen his stuff or not.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Are British people embarrassed over the outpouring of grief? I'm not a fan of the monarchy but she did seem to be very popular with a lot of people in this country....

I wasn't embarrassed about anything with her. I just didn't give a flying fuck about her death.

 

[Sea Star]

What about Lemmy?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What about Lemmy?

My guess: he's at peak fame about now, and it will steadily diminish from now.

 

[krtek a houby]

I wasn't embarrassed about anything with her. I just didn't give a flying fuck about her death.

I get that, sure. Am just wondering about her star quality & reckon that the outpouring of grief means that she connected with so many...

 

[Sprocket.]

Lauren Bacall.
Ingrid Bergman.
Montgomery Clift.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I get that, sure. Am just wondering about her star quality & reckon that the outpouring of grief means that she connected with so many...

Dunno. The widespread extent of that grief can be exaggerated, mind you. Plenty of people didn't give a shit.

But I don't get royalty worship. Don't understand it. I was working at the Festival Hall when the Queen Mother died and the queue to file past her body stretched across the river to outside the RFH. 16 hours, people queued for, and there were young people there at the back of the queue with their kids. I did not get that at all.

 

[Sea Star]

Has Clint Eastwood blown it now? I think the man with no name was pretty iconic once, but now I think everyone associates Eastwood with rambling old Trump supporter

 

[krtek a houby]

Dunno. The widespread extent of that grief can be exaggerated, mind you. Plenty of people didn't give a shit.

But I don't get royalty worship. Don't understand it. I was working at the Festival Hall when the Queen Mother died and the queue to file past her body stretched across the river to outside the RFH. 16 hours, people queued for, and there were young people there at the back of the queue with their kids. I did not get that at all.

It's a cultural thing, I guess. I don't get royalty worship, country worship or flag worship but some people (maybe a lot of people) take these things very seriously.

Anyway, I'm derailing. Back to the movies

 

[Reno]

Lauren Bacall.
Ingrid Bergman.
Montgomery Clift.

Though I actually like him better, Clift was always eclipsed by Dean and Brando, the two other big "sensitive male method" stars.

 

[krtek a houby]

Has Clint Eastwood blown it now? I think the man with no name was pretty iconic once, but now I think everyone associates Eastwood with rambling old Trump supporter

He'll always be "Manco" to me

 

[Reno]

Has Clint Eastwood blown it now? I think the man with no name was pretty iconic once, but now I think everyone associates Eastwood with rambling old Trump supporter

If you are genuinely iconic, a few scandals or dumb moves can't topple you. Eastwood was never an icon to me. He always stood for right wing values, be that as Dirty Harry, his most famous role, the subtext of several of his films as a director or as a politician. But that also means this isn't some major surprise.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So, some criteria, maybe...

To endure as an icon, it helps to be beautiful (but not necessary - see Bogart). It helps to be super-talented (but not necessary - Marylin?). It really helps to have fantastic photos of you kicking around.

What else?

 

[Pickman's model]

Dunno. The widespread extent of that grief can be exaggerated, mind you. Plenty of people didn't give a shit.

But I don't get royalty worship. Don't understand it. I was working at the Festival Hall when the Queen Mother died and the queue to file past her body stretched across the river to outside the RFH. 16 hours, people queued for, and there were young people there at the back of the queue with their kids. I did not get that at all.

I understand royalty worship. But I don't understand worship of the upstart usurping mountbatten-windsors.

 

[krtek a houby]

So, some criteria, maybe...

To endure as an icon, it helps to be beautiful (but not necessary - see Bogart). It helps to be super-talented (but not necessary - Marylin?). It really helps to have fantastic photos of you kicking around.

What else?

Caucasian? Or at least, that's how it feels sometimes with these lists. Would Mohammed Ali count as cinematic icon? Muhammad Ali: the essential movies

 

[JimW]

There's a fictional Cary Grant in the novel I'm reading and you don't hear much about him any more, though I suppose such a body of work will keep him fresh with film buffs.

 

[Pickman's model]

Ira Aldridge

 

[Reno]

Caucasian? Or at least, that's how it feels sometimes with these lists. Would Mohammed Ali count as cinematic icon? Muhammad Ali: the essential movies

Surprise, surprise but genuine black movie stars only came in with the civil rights movement in the 60s. I wouldn't dig around to see whether a famous boxer has made any movies to qualify as a cinematic icon (he doesn't), Sidney Poitier was the first really big black movie star. Earlier potential stars like Dorothy Dandridge and Lena Horne had their careers hobbled by a very racist Hollywood.

 

[krtek a houby]

Surprise, surprise but genuine black movie stars only came in with the civil rights movement in the 60s. I wouldn't dig around to see whether a famous boxer has made any movies, Sidney Poitier was the first big black movie star. Earlier ones like Dorothy Dandridge had their career hobbled by a very racist Hollywood.

I was thinking of Sidney Poitier and Paul Robeson and Harry Belafonte for starters but as brilliant as they are/were; are they much known today?

 

[Sirena]

If I was to try and list those film stars of my generation, who will last as 'legends', it would only be a handful and I don't think many of them will achieve 'icon' status

Clint Eastwood (because of the iconic characters he played)
Audrey Hepburn (for Breakfast at Tiffany's mostly)
Maggie Smith (for UK audiences mostly, just because she was Maggie Smith.....)
Julie Andrews
Bruce Lee
Paul Newman
Sean Connery (James Bond)
Meryl Streep (she hasn't the 'look' but she has a body of work....)
Sylvester Stallone
Harrison Ford
Brad Pitt
Johnny Depp
Morgan Freeman (though he's done some doo-doo films lately)

 

[DaveCinzano]

Maggie Smith (for UK audiences mostly, just because she was Maggie Smith.....)

...Was..?

 

[Sea Star]

Ali for sure, but maybe Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix, Prince, Bob Marley (surely!), Billie Holiday...

 

[pengaleng]

boredom.

 

[Sirena]

Ali for sure, but maybe Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix, Prince, Bob Marley (surely!), Billie Holiday...

They were music and, maybe, music has replaced the silver screen as the birthplace for stars.

Certainly, a tragic (young) death - often a prerequisite for legendary status - is more common among music stars.

 

[Reno]

I was thinking of Sidney Poitier and Paul Robeson and Harry Belafonte for starters but as brilliant as they are/were; are they much known today?

Maybe not, but Poitier is the closest to a classic Hollywood era black movie icon as you were the one to bring up race. Robeson and Belafonte came before Poitier. They were still cast in films when Hollywood needed a black actor to fill a black role and they had music careers which were bigger than their film careers (music was slightly ahead of Hollywood in terms of race). Poitier was the first black star who got his own star vehicles built around him, which makes him a film star.

 

[Reno]

They were music and, maybe, music has replaced the silver screen as the birthplace for stars.

Certainly, a tragic (young) death - often a prerequisite for legendary status - is more common among music stars.

I don't think music stars have replaced film stars, the two have long run parallel and there were music stars before film even existed.

Celebrities who are famous for being famous have replaced film stars.

 

[peterkro]

He's also very recent really.

Orson Welles. Recentish too, but the work he's remembered for isn't. I reckon Richard Burton will endure cos of his voice.

Welles I think is an icon because of his earliest stuff,for me especially his pre war radio stuff "the Shadow " a classic radio series.The Third Man,Citizen Kane,On the Waterfront established his icon hood a latish Apocalypse Now stood out from later crap like last tango.

RKO Orson Welles - The Shadow - radio recordings : pamstv : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[Reno]

Welles I think is an icon because of his earliest stuff,for me especially his pre war radio stuff "the Shadow " a classic radio series.The Third Man,Citizen Kane,On the Waterfront established his icon hood a latish Apocalypse Now stood out from later crap like last tango.

You've lost me there somewhere.

 

[krtek a houby]

Maybe not, but Poitier is the closest to a classic Hollywood era black movie icon as you were the one to bring up race. Robeson and Belafonte came before Poitier. They were still cast in films when Hollywood needed a black actor to fill a black role. Poitier was the first black star who got his own star vehicles built around him which makes him a genuine film star.

Yes, I was the one to bring up race. I feel that black, Asian, etc people are often left out of these things. We can't just blame it on Hollywood alone...