Hong Kong: China's Last Words?

[Jessiedog]

Jessidog



Jessidog

The impact of a democratic H/K is no gaurded secret.. It just takes a little common sense, a tiny bit of research and an ability to see both sides of the debate.. If this is something you are not capable of understanding well my dear thats your problem.. I have pointed you in the direction where you can alleviate your ignorance. See below.. Also if you care do a search on some of the websites of the broadsheet newspapers both here in the UK, States and Europe this may also assist you in your endevour..

I have learned from previous mistakes that to try and educate a fool who's mind is closed is a thankless task for that reason I will ignore your request.. If on the other hand you do some research and accept at the very least that there are reasons why democracy at this time for H/K would be difficult for China then I would at least take the time to consider your comments..


Thomas77

"Blah, blah, blah! I know what I'm talking about. But I'm not going to tell you what I am talking about. Blah, blah, blah!"

Doesn't wash Tommy boy!

If you have any arguments, present them here.

Or give over.



Woof

 

[Thomas77]

"Blah, blah, blah! I know what I'm talking about. But I'm not going to tell you what I am talking about. Blah, blah, blah!

Doesn't wash Tommy boy!

If you have any arguments, present them here.

Or give over.

You have just made me smile..

I think I would like to take you out sometime and we could discuss this over a drink/meal!!

 

[redsquirrel]

Just being reading this thread and I have to say that Thomas77 you come across as more than a little arrogant. If you have arguments about why HK shouldn't be a democracy then why don't you give them rather than calling JessieDog names.

It's not like anyones demanding a full blown thesis just some basic outlines of the reasons for your argument.

 

[Jessiedog]

You have just made me smile..

I think I would like to take you out sometime and we could discuss this over a drink/meal!!

I imagine that would be most edifying. I accept!



Seriously Thomas, let's drop the animosity and have a chat here too.

I have, of course, heard many/most/all of the arguments I believe you may put forth.

I'm certainly not going to propound on them here tho'!

Many of them, as I have mentioned, I might be inclined to give some merit to were they restricted to the debate over the democratisation of Mainland China.

I am aware of the arguments for restraining HK's democracy and feel that, on balance, they do not merit further inhibition, indeed, to the contrary, I am convinced that a democratic Hong Kong would be a beacon of prosperity and stability in China and demonstrate clearly that an accereration (not a mad dash) of liberalisation in the Mainland is not just essential to maintain mid-term stability, but is actually feasible without massive disruption.

If you have read my ramblings on China here over the last two years, you will know that I support China, despise the CCP (although am still willing to give Hu and Wen the benefit of the doubt in the short term - things do move slowly in Beijing) and dream of a democratic, peaceful and prosperous nation - within my lifetime.

It starts in Hong Kong and the time is now. The CCP has made some terrible mistakes here in HK over the last few years and none have been as misguided as the recent debacle of yet another Baisc Law "interpretation", so now our mini-constitution assures us that a cat is a dog and a bird is a lamb. The CCP's recent actions in HK have done more to damage China's interests both internally and internationally than democracy in HK EVER could.

The interests of the CCP are NOT the same as the interests of China.

A democratic Hong Kong would be good for China; and the sooner the better.


Tom, put up a few of the arguments that democracy in HK would threaten China's interests in some detail (or any or arguments for delaying universal suffrage here), I'd be delighted to engage with civility.



I must say though, I believe I am fighting for our fundamental and basic right to select and change our leaders. We were promised. These promises have been trashed and trampled underfoot in the most uncivilised way by the same political party that made them in the first place. Yup! The CCP.

And yet here I am, sitting arguing with someone who enjoys these rights himself and yet would deny them to us, but will not put forth his reasons as to why we should be so denied.

Fucking astonishing really!



Definately better done over a Gin and Tonic, ice and slice tho'. It's REALLY hot here tonite!





Woof

 

[Concrete Meadow]

The very fact that we can have a heated conversation on differences of issues and end up splotching ice cubes atop G&T's is a case in point. The citizens of Hong Kong are not so lucky. They are about to be denied of these priviledges. Thomas77, why don't you fly to Hong Kong, live among her people for a while and try to understand their plights before hurling abusive words at Jessiedog?


Jessie:

With less than an hour to go before June turns into July, I have my white shirt ready and will join y'all -at cyberspace over- Victoria Park.

 

[Jessiedog]

Hi Meadow,

It may just be that Tom and I will have the chance to parlay over a refreshing beverage within the next two or three months.

When are you next out?


I'm getting excited now.

Gonna make me banners tomorrow morning.

Something like:

DEMOCRACY, NOT INDEPENDENCE!

Errrr.....Well I'm still thinkng really.

Will report back either tomorrow night or Friday (got the feeling I may be in the pub on Thursday).

Here's hoping for a good turnout, a peaceful march and no heatstroke ('twas 37 centigrade yesterday afternoon).

Blessings.



Woof

 

[Concrete Meadow]

Proud Of Ya Hong Kong

The organizers estimated 530,000 Hongkongese took to the streets on 1 July, 2004. Yea, return the power to the people!

source: AP.com

HONG KONG - Hundreds of thousands of Hong Kong people marched Thursday in a massive, impassioned plea for full democracy, mixed with anger at Beijing for recently denying them the right to directly choose their government.

Tempers have flared here since China ruled in April that ordinary citizens cannot elect the successor to their unpopular leader, Chief Executive Tung Chee-hwa, in 2007 or all lawmakers in 2008.

"We don't want to be subservient to the central government," said Ben Kwok, a 40-year-old factory owner. "We don't want Hong Kong to become like the mainland, where even the news gets censored."

People took to the streets en masse on the seventh anniversary of the former British colony's handover to Chinese sovereignty.

Protest organizer Jackie Hung, a Roman Catholic activist, told The Associated Press that more than 400,000 people had turned out, but the crowd was still marching in the early evening. Earlier, a police officer said at least 90,000 people were counted in less than an hour, but the crowd was still growing at that point.

"Only democracy can save Hong Kong," said 65-year-old Cheuk Kuang, a former driver. "The communist government is intervening too much in Hong Kong and it's trying to shut down all opposition voices."

Marchers filled all four lanes of a major downtown thoroughfare, peacefully chanting slogans, holding up signs and waving inflatable Tung dolls as they made their way to the fenced-off Hong Kong government headquarters.

The march came on the first anniversary of a protest by 500,000 people that stunned the Hong Kong and Beijing governments and forced Tung to withdraw an anti-subversion bill that many had viewed as a threat to freedoms.

Many accuse Tung of being a puppet to Beijing.

"The Hong Kong government is just foolish," said clerk Maggie Yung. "It's completely turned a blind eye to the people."

But the mood seemed less angry than last year. Thousands of the protesters were fanning themselves on the hottest day of the year, with temperatures hitting 94.

Despite Beijing's ruling in April that shattered hopes for universal suffrage in the near future, many of the demonstrators from all walks of life vowed to keep pushing for reform.

"Someone said there's no point in protesting," said 44-year-old Lo Keung-wah, who sells construction materials. "But is it any good if we don't protest?"

Tung and other dignitaries stood at attention in the morning as the Chinese and Hong Kong flags were solemnly raised to the sounds of the national anthem. Outside, a dozen activists tried to carry a mock black coffin toward the ceremony but were held back by a larger group of police.

Protesters have rankled Beijing with what it views as a provocative rallying cry: "Return power to the people."

In Beijing, China's government defended Hong Kong's political system as "real and unprecedented democracy" and rejected criticism of its handling of the territory as foreign interference in its affairs.

"The residents of Hong Kong enjoy real and unprecedented democracy, which can be witnessed by the international community," Foreign Minister spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue told a news conference when asked to comment on the protests in Hong Kong.

In Hong Kong, a mainland visitor, 30-year-old accountant Bob Zhuang, watched the early morning demonstration for a few minutes and called the activists "stupid."

"Should such a protest really be allowed in this territory?" Zhuang asked, waving a red Chinese flag.

Pro-democracy figures hope Thursday's march will generate momentum for September legislative elections that will let ordinary citizens choose 30 of the territory's 60 lawmakers, up from 24 four years ago.

The rest are chosen by special interest groups, such as businessmen, doctors and lawyers, who tend to side with Beijing. The central and territorial governments want to avoid ending up with a legislature that won't back Tung, something that hasn't happened in the seven years since Britain returned this former colony to China.

Tung was chosen by an 800-member committee loyal to Beijing.

The central government permits no political dissent in the mainland and was clearly worried about the rally.

Enjoy that drink (with lots of ice cubes), you've earned it, Jessie

 

[Jessiedog]

WOW!

What a day.

11:45pm.

Just home.

Wow!

I love these people - my people - my home.

I am so proud.

No violence, no arrests, no injuries (540 people fainted in the 36C degree heat tho' )

We ARE the people.

We WILL prevail.

Blessings.



Woof

 

[hipipol]

A little bit of History folks

The majority of the people of Hong Kong either arrived not long after 49 with just the clothes the wore, or swam the Yellow River estuary to escape the Peoples Republic- as a child I saw bodies washed up on the beach, hands tied behind their backs, shot in the head after summary execution by Peoples Tribunals- or are descended from those who suffered this way
The people of Hong Kong do not trust the Government in Beijing
Why should they?
Having promised one thing, they deliver another
This is still the same Government that drove tanks over sleeping protestors
Only by having control of their own destiny can they hope to avoid the fate of those in the rest of China, victims of an utterly corrupt, greedy and murderous regime. Its only by taking to the streets in vaste numbers that they have preserved the freedoms they have, the slightest relaxation and the slide back into the maw of the all pervasive Party leaving them no better off than all those poor bastards with no Iron Rice Bowl anymore and just grinding poverty, whose very survival is at the whim of some totally unaccountable local Party Official
I grew up with and still count as friends people who ran away at great personal risk from exactly this kind of deranged authoritarian crap.
Thomas77 and all you other appologists for this dictatorship, your usual excuse is that China has always been like this, Mao was simply a sort of modern age Emperor, it will never change, blah, blah
You forget, Confusius actually allows that people can rebel when the Emperor is bad and is failing his people. China down the centuries has had numerous risings by the people when they have been badly treated, a tradition that Mao exploited to get them to throw out the Nationalist Govt.
Hong Kong is more racially diverse than any other City/Region in China, it has a tradition of a free press, throwing eggs at the Governer during the Brit times was almost a national sport- they will not lie down easily to Beijings writ. They are independant minded people, who in the main would provide a beacon of hope to the rest of China if Beijing lived up to its promises.
I think that the Party should trust the people of HK and keep their promise. They would see that they can give control to the peole without anarchy breaking out. Once they have seen this, perhaps the rest of China would have a chance.
I think the exact opposite to you Thomas77, the best hope for China, all of China, is for HK to given what it was promised

PS Cngrats on the march Jessie
Yours, "A poor little rich kid"

 

[Jessiedog]

The majority of the people of Hong Kong either arrived not long after 49 with just the clothes the wore, or swam the Yellow River estuary to escape the Peoples Republic- as a child I saw bodies washed up on the beach, hands tied behind their backs, shot in the head after summary execution by Peoples Tribunals- or are descended from those who suffered this way
The people of Hong Kong do not trust the Government in Beijing
Why should they?
Having promised one thing, they deliver another
This is still the same Government that drove tanks over sleeping protestors
Only by having control of their own destiny can they hope to avoid the fate of those in the rest of China, victims of an utterly corrupt, greedy and murderous regime. Its only by taking to the streets in vaste numbers that they have preserved the freedoms they have, the slightest relaxation and the slide back into the maw of the all pervasive Party leaving them no better off than all those poor bastards with no Iron Rice Bowl anymore and just grinding poverty, whose very survival is at the whim of some totally unaccountable local Party Official
I grew up with and still count as friends people who ran away at great personal risk from exactly this kind of deranged authoritarian crap.
Thomas77 and all you other appologists for this dictatorship, your usual excuse is that China has always been like this, Mao was simply a sort of modern age Emperor, it will never change, blah, blah
You forget, Confusius actually allows that people can rebel when the Emperor is bad and is failing his people. China down the centuries has had numerous risings by the people when they have been badly treated, a tradition that Mao exploited to get them to throw out the Nationalist Govt.
Hong Kong is more racially diverse than any other City/Region in China, it has a tradition of a free press, throwing eggs at the Governer during the Brit times was almost a national sport- they will not lie down easily to Beijings writ. They are independant minded people, who in the main would provide a beacon of hope to the rest of China if Beijing lived up to its promises.
I think that the Party should trust the people of HK and keep their promise. They would see that they can give control to the peole without anarchy breaking out. Once they have seen this, perhaps the rest of China would have a chance.
I think the exact opposite to you Thomas77, the best hope for China, all of China, is for HK to given what it was promised

PS Cngrats on the march Jessie
Yours, "A poor little rich kid"

Word hipipol!



Yours: "The mad bitch"



Woof

 

[Thomas77]

hippol

Thomas77 and all you other appologists for this dictatorship, your usual excuse is that China has always been like this, Mao was simply a sort of modern age Emperor, it will never change, blah, blah
You forget, Confusius actually allows that people can rebel when the Emperor is bad and is failing his people. China down the centuries has had numerous risings by the people when they have been badly treated, a tradition that Mao exploited to get them to throw out the Nationalist Govt.

Don't be putting words in my mouth.. According to Confucius, a gentleman should think of the good of the community/country before the good of himself or his family. He should strive to maintain the five relationships which regulate society--ruler/subject, father/son, husband/wife, older brother/younger brother, and friend/friend. It appears to me that by granting democracy to H/K at this time there would be grave consequeces for the whole of China. If you cant see this then that's your problem, although the problem that I have is that a China more unstable by these demands by the people of H/K would also have consequences for the world at large.. Oh and that means me!!

 

[Jessiedog]

hippol
It appears to me that by granting democracy to H/K at this time there would be grave consequeces for the whole of China.......the problem that I have is that a China more unstable by these demands by the people of H/K would also have consequences for the world at large.. Oh and that means me!!

Hi Thomas,

Hmmmm.....Here we go again......

Would you please be more explicit about (specificy,) these "grave consequences for the whole of China", should HK enjoy democracy in 2007/08?

Would you also please clearly elucidate how our (the HK peeps) demands have/are creating "instability" on the mainland?

Further, please clarify how this this impacting you?

Perhaps then I could address your concerns.

Thanks,



Woof

 

[Concrete Meadow]

In the interim ...



More news/analysis on last week's protest march.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4273482,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3872381.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3859917.stm

and

Hong Kong Health Secretary Dr Yeoh Eng-kiong's resignation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3873799.stm


Jessie:

Tung (C. Tung in Cantonese means chamber pot) also led the peeps up the garden path over SARS, no?

 

[Jessiedog]

....So many citizens who braved the searing heat to march in the streets have sent a clear message with their actions - The improvement in the economic environment cannot 'buy off' the Hong Kong people, dampen their discontent towards the SAR government, or make them give up their quest for democracy.

Hong Kong's Apple Daily


A half a million people marching peacefully for their democratic rights.

And the world sees fit to ignore it.

I find it utterly ironic that Iraq will enjoy democracy before Hong Kong.

Actually, I feel sick.



Woof

 

[vimto]

....So many citizens who braved the searing heat to march in the streets have sent a clear message with their actions - The improvement in the economic environment cannot 'buy off' the Hong Kong people, dampen their discontent towards the SAR government, or make them give up their quest for democracy.

Hong Kong's Apple Daily


A half a million people marching peacefully for their democratic rights.

And the world sees fit to ignore it.

I find it utterly ironic that Iraq will enjoy democracy before Hong Kong.

Actually, I feel sick.



Woof

I thought you had given up on U75 Jessie

Second thoughts perhaps

Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

I thought you had given up on U75 Jessie

Second thoughts perhaps

Woof "

Just the death throes vim.

Fading fast.

Not much time left for me now (in urban and in life).

Can't decide whether a whimper or a bite.........

....Anyway, thanks for noticing.

Most won't.

Woof

 

[Thomas77]

....So many citizens who braved the searing heat to march in the streets have sent a clear message with their actions - The improvement in the economic environment cannot 'buy off' the Hong Kong people, dampen their discontent towards the SAR government, or make them give up their quest for democracy.

Hong Kong's Apple Daily


A half a million people marching peacefully for their democratic rights.

And the world sees fit to ignore it.

I find it utterly ironic that Iraq will enjoy democracy before Hong Kong.

Actually, I feel sick.

Its not ironic, the chinese govt today are nothing like Saddam. Your time will come just thank your lucky stars democracy wont be bestowed on you in a similiar way as the people of iraq have had to die for it..

 

[Jessiedog]

Its not ironic, the chinese govt today are nothing like Saddam. Your time will come just thank your lucky stars democracy wont be bestowed on you in a similiar way as the people of iraq have had to die for it..

Fair point Tom.

I am aware of my blessings.

Bless you.



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

Fair point Tom.

I am aware of my blessings.

Bless you.



Woof

That said tho', I seem to remember a fair few dying for democracy in Tiananmen 15 years ago.

A million of us Honkies marched peacefully in protest.

Still, this thread is about HK, so soz to be off topic.



Woof

 

[TeeJay]

...Although to assist you in your fight against your own ignorance you may care to cast a glance over a number of articles that have appeared in the Far Eastern Economic Review in the last six months...

You mean like this article from the July 8th edition:
(article reproduced because you need to register etc to be able to read it)

HONG KONG
Making China Listen

Sceptics dismissed last year's July 1 march as an expression of economic discontent. But despite a healthier economy, protests have continued, and this time Beijing is a target

By Michael Vatikiotis/HONG KONG

Issue cover-dated July 08, 2004

THE WORLD IS WATCHING closely as the people of Hong Kong take to the streets on a public holiday marking the July 1 handover of the former British colony to China in 1997. The number of people who turn out in the intense summer heat and still, humid air will be measured against the more than half million people who showed up at last year's march, as an indication of the potency of Hong Kong's political crisis and its potential impact on the rest of China.

The massive turnout last year surprised many who assumed that Hong Kong's people were docile and apolitical. And the sustained public restlessness in the year since then seems to have proved wrong those who said the huge turnout reflected purely economic discontent.

In the months that followed last July's march, as the Hong Kong economy steadily improved, protests continued and public pressure for political change persisted. Nearly 100,000 people marched on New Year's Day and another 80,000 showed up at a June 4 rally to mark the 1989 crackdown on students in Beijing's Tiananmen Square.

A survey conducted by the not-for-profit organization Civic Exchange at the end of June found that more than half of those polled thought Hong Kong was "on the wrong track" for political as well as economic reasons. A majority were also unhappy with Beijing's decision at the end of April to halt progress towards universal suffrage. When asked if they had a message for the Hong Kong administration, the most frequent response was: "Listen to the people." Significantly, almost a quarter of respondents felt that it was up to the Hong Kong people to push for universal suffrage.

"It's a sign of the emergence of a very positive social movement," says Christine Loh, the chief executive of Civic Exchange. She points to other examples of public action over the past year, including sizeable protests against land reclamation in Hong Kong's picturesque Victoria Harbour and a proposed new prison, and popular support for an official inquiry into the outbreak of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome that hit Hong Kong last year. "People are making these demands as a way of getting at the government and showing their discontent," says Loh.

But this year's march will be different in one critical aspect. Last year, protesters zeroed in on the Hong Kong government and the threat to civil liberties represented by new security legislation proposed by the administration of Chief Executive Tung Chee-hwa. This year, Beijing's decision in April to dash hopes of holding elections for Hong Kong's chief executive has made the mainland government a potential target for protesters. For many observers, Hong Kong's struggle for democracy has become a bell-wether not only for Hong Kong's political climate but also for the pace of political change in China.

That's why the Beijing leadership would probably prefer that mainlanders see and hear little of the unhappiness emanating from Hong Kong. One measure of possible concern in Beijing is the drastic fall in the number of mainland tour groups heading for the territory around the time of the handover anniversary. Normally, as many as 600 groups cross the border daily. Fewer than 50 are expected on July 1-2, according to local travel agents.

China certainly seems to have grasped the wider significance of the protests. Leaders switched tactics in June from a hard stance that prompted allegations of intimidation of the media to a more conciliatory approach that gushed with promises of a cosy chat over tea in Beijing for pro-democracy activists. Even Vice-President Zeng Qinghong, who is said to favour a tougher security approach to Hong Kong, stopped short of calling on people not to march. "There are various forms of expression," he told the Hong Kong media on June 22, while travelling in Africa. "But whatever the form . . . it must be good for Hong Kong's prosperity and stability."

In Hong Kong itself, normally brusque and stiff officials from the central government's Hong Kong liaison office have kept to the background. Stepping forward instead have been suave Foreign Ministry officials who have been assuring the wider business world that Hong Kong isn't about to see a Tiananmen-style security crackdown.

Yang Wengchan, a senior diplomat who is commissioner of China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Hong Kong, told the American Chamber of Commerce in flawless English that Hong Kong's "One Country, Two Systems" framework "is a diamond we have found ourselves and we cherish it so much. It is not a dirty stone that you can throw way as you please."

The peaceful, lawful manner in which Hong Kong people have been expressing themselves has made it hard for the authorities to crack down so far. And with both sides donning velvet gloves, it's hard to expect much change overnight as a result of the protests. Christine Loh argues that this may be the only approach that will work. "We have to sustain the social movement," she says. "This is a marathon, not a sprint."

or maybe this recent book review:

Predicting People Power

In his new book, Bruce Gilley argues that the fall of the Communist Party in China is not a question of if but when, writes Richard Halloran

Issue cover-dated June 24, 2004

China's Democratic Future: How It Will Happen and Where It Will Lead by Bruce Gilley. Columbia University Press. $29.50

BRUCE GILLEY'S PREDICTION that the advent of democracy in China is inevitable may be the most optimistic forecast about this troubled nation in recent years. Given the headlines disclosing Beijing's erosion of democratic rights in Hong Kong, despite the promise of "one country, two systems," his book, China's Democratic Future, could be greeted with a bit of scepticism...

or this:

TIANANMEN MASSACRE

Not Forgotten, Not Forgiven

Fifteen years have passed since the Tiananmen Massacre, but its legacy lives on in the lives of ordinary Chinese and in national policy. In those 15 years, China has taken great leaps forward. But in one important area it has taken a step backward: political reform

By Anthony Kuhn/BEIJING

Issue cover-dated June 03, 2004

WHEN WANDERING in Beijing's Tiananmen Square today, with its hordes of cheerful local and foreign tourists, it's easy to gain the impression that the passage of 15 years has healed a searing political and emotional trauma. For many Chinese, particularly the young, the violence on June 4, 1989, that crushed peaceful protests by students and other citizens, leaving hundreds dead, has faded into history. Since 1989, China has been transformed as phenomenal economic growth brought rising living standards, some freedoms and increasing international stature.

But the legacy of the Tiananmen Massacre endures--in its influence on the lives of ordinary people, and in its imposition of a conservative leadership and agenda that has frozen political reform at the top.

Since 1989, the suspension and rollback of the incipient democratization begun in the 1980s has continued to concentrate power in the Communist Party, fuelling a steady rise in corruption. As the Tiananmen-era leaders retire and a new generation takes the helm, the fundamental question remains: How sustainable is economic development without political reform?

It sounds like it is you that doesn't have a clue.

edit: and I just spotted this on another thread:

Now your talking... Your opinions my opinions are based on secondhand hand me down tittle tattle.. The knowledge I gain through a newspaper is not real knowledge in my opinion!!

 

[TeeJay]

A half a million people marching peacefully for their democratic rights.

And the world sees fit to ignore it.

We aren't ignoring it. For what its worth it headlined the main BBC evening news in the UK and they had pictures of the massive crowds. Keep up the good work - remember its all about doing what you can and trying to push things in the right direction, thats all you can do, so don't let things get you down.

 

[TeeJay]

I have just been reading T77's utter bollocks about Thailand and his bragging about being to Koh San Road and trying to tell fela fan he didn't know anything about the place (after 12 years living there).

I also noted how after fela disagreed with the utter bollocks this guy was spouting (eg. monks driving luxury cars in and out of temples) T77 switched straight into shit-throwing abuse mode.

This is someone with some severe "issues" I think. Not really worth trying to debate seriously with, as this thread shows as well.

...All that I have learned are there are quite a lot of people who appear to have quite a lot of concerns about what they see taking place within Thailand.

Plenty of gripes about the PM and what he is doing but not many suggested solutions.

Just a couple of questions before I don't bother writing again.

What do you all hope to gain by scrambling around looking at sites for stats on Thailand and prostitution. Other by impressing freinds with your new found knowledge, what else? What do you hope to acheive by throwing accussations at the PM and being critical of his policies?

Nothing, you will acheive nothing and change nothing. You might as well stand on the nearest tall building and shout I can change nothing because it would be true.

The only people who can change the situation are the Thai people themselves either through peacful democratic elections. Or by a not too peaceful overthrow of the government.

Right I'm off and thank you all for convincing me that my time can be better spent doing other more worthwhile things

Seems to be a bit confused about if they really support democracy or not...

I hope i never come across the twat again on any thread.

Never known anyone to be so puffed up with self righteousness with an uncanny skill at being impolite in equal measure.

Surely he was a wind-up? No-one takes themselves that seriously, do they?

Too true.

I made the mistake of trying to debate with him earlier in the thread. Then i saw him elsewhere on urban, and then realised he is a fantasising lying wanker of a troll, even if a clever one.

Fela this is absurd as well I only debate with reasoned and rational individuals who know the facts of the matter and whom I respect. Unfortunatley you do not fall into any of these categories.

Seems that the insults get recycled as well.

Any chance we could re-convince T77 that their time can be better spent doing other more worthwhile things? In the meantime I suggest both not feeding the troll and reporting them to the mods for trolling if they try to provoke anyone into talking to them, probably by a stream of vacuous insults if the Thailand thread is anything to go by. (see here for the whole saga: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=60612&page=1&pp=40 )

 

[Thomas77]

Waw TJ that sure is one hell of a list of crimes that you apportion in my direction. Where do I start?

Firstly your close studies of the Thailand thread appears to only pull out little gems that you feel weaken the argument I was making at the time.. For your information I spent almost 11 months in the country long enough to have seen and form opinions on my own and not have to rely on second hand tittle tattle. Not really confused about democracy either. Thailand, China, Hong Kong all unique situations and what is right for one country at any given time may not be suitable for others because of a multitude of reasons. Read a little yourself and you maybe learn..

The article you regurgetated from the review is selective and only gives another viewpoint there have been others written by authors who take a totally diffrent view and in my opinionin a more realistic one to some of the problems facing the Chinese govt at this time if democracy were introduced. Publications like the review are a little different from every day newspapers more focussed, specialised, informative if you like I'm sure you agree but if you cant see this well thats okay!!

You know what suprises me about people like you the way you will only come up with sources/examples that support your argument. Now TJ you maybe get a little piece of my respect if you were to use your time scrambling around looking at the other side of the debate. Showing me that you were willing to see the wider picture, its a shame that your not capable of this. I'm lucky in that I have looked at the problem from both sides though its not for me to waste my time educating the likes of you. Instead of trying to get me banned like a child in school who doesn't like what his freind is saying to him. Act like an adult and convince me with the merits of your argument. I will never take anyone seriously who fails to consider all sides of the debate!! Fela, Jessie or even little old you..

 

[hipipol]

Ah Thomas

I wonder if you ever studied at the feet of Lee Kwan Yew- you certainly seem to spout the sort of authoritarian non-sense he was/is fond of- saying that these things need to happen slowly, while setting up the dynasty.
Perhaps Dr Mahatir is more up your street, espousing some special "Asian Values" and way of life that meant,
A People did not want to elect their Governments, as they were more interested in making money, taking care of their families etc
B Weren't actually capable of electing their leaders
All this crap about Asians generally being child-like and unable to think about elections in a mature way is crap- (well other than all the fucking singing in Indonesia) - the Phillpines seems to have managed it and they hardly had an easy path. Surely all its simply a smokescreen to allow the slimeballs in power to continue the cronyism and corruption they think is their due?
Thaksin is hardly a beacon of probity
Do you really think Mahatirs deputy buggered that guy?
Of course not.
In the case of Malasia and Singapore they have simply reproduced the old boys club that ran them in Colonial times- a good friend of mine had his entire families phones bugged for 10 years in Singapore because his mother, a prominant healthcare specialist make a couple of remarks that were not entirely complimentary about the Lee dynasty.
Corruption is corruption where ever it occurs and Asian people and are not somehow congenitally biased towards and happy about it.
Judging by your posts T77, English is not your first language and I find myself wondering how long you have been a memeber of the Party? Is that why you think "The People" are incapable? Actually, Jo En Lai is probably your hero, he was equally smug, but a lot smarter than you will ever be.
Oh yeah, as for seeing both sides, have you ever concidered having a balanced view yourself?

 

[Thomas77]

hippol

A People did not want to elect their Governments, as they were more interested in making money, taking care of their families etc

B Weren't actually capable of electing their leaders/

You know hippo have a look around you. I'm not sure where your from but you may have come up with something here. Point A and B that you espouse both have more than a grain of truth in them.

Your correct I have studied somewhat although not at anyones feet. I prefer to look at other peoples thoeries, ways of government, good aspects bad aspects, problems oh and solutions.

Some people like to put forward their ideas of solutions without really attempting to see where these proposed solutions may create problems. I'm of the opinion that you are one of these such people.. Nice of you to think of me as a party member it just goes to show how wrong you can be. As for how smart I am don't let that bother you. There are those who know and those who think they know I would put you in the latter camp..

Hongkong will one day be democratic but those who have experience of trying to make an elephant move at a pace it doesn't want to or physically can, realise the enormity of the situation/problems that confront China at these times.

When the time is right the elephant will move.. All the pushing in the world by the people in H/K, other internal or external pressure by people/countries will not make one bit of difference.

As I see it at the moment the only outside pressure that is being exerted by other countries in China at the moment is the pressure of their companies to have a presence in the country/market.

America/France/Britain/Germany/ etc.. Do you think that these governemnts are going to jeapordise their trade in China by making a fuss over the lack of democarcy in H/K.

 

[hipipol]

Nice try geeze

No I dont "espouse" that vapid twaddle as you well know
You are all coy about your "studies", not a trait I would have associated with you based on observation of some of your other postings, but then you seem to have moved into cod-Eastern Philosopher mode.
I preferred you as the ranting nut-job actually

 

[Thomas77]

No I dont "espouse" that vapid twaddle as you well know
You are all coy about your "studies", not a trait I would have associated with you based on observation of some of your other postings, but then you seem to have moved into cod-Eastern Philosopher mode.
I preferred you as the ranting nut-job actually

I aim to please and can do either. A skill to be admired don't you think?

 

[Peggydog]

We aren't ignoring it. For what its worth it headlined the main BBC evening news in the UK and they had pictures of the massive crowds.

Sure TJ, but only up to a point really. As Tom points out below, no other country is going to jeapordise their "China" relationship, least of all the UK. I tend to subscribe to Tony Latters perspective (have done since the 1999 right of abode controversy, when the UK was less than conspicuous in its condemnation).

From todays SCMP (subscription only, so 'scuse the C&P):

Thursday, July 8, 2004

TONY LATTER

A far-off, irrelevant place


** Having been on holiday in England, I have had the opportunity to observe British reactions to last week's democracy rally in Hong Kong. One might, for obvious reasons, expect more interest from Britain than from anywhere else in Europe, if not the entire west.

After all, the British government itself is formally on record as expressing a "hope to see early progress towards the Basic Law's ultimate aims of the selection of the chief executive and election of all members of the Legislative Council by universal suffrage, at a pace in step with the wishes of the people". And in April, one of the British Foreign Office ministers expressed disappointment "that the NPC has set limits to constitutional development ... that are not required by the Basic Law".

Generally, however, London, unless forced into a statement, clearly prefers to remain silent on the issue, to keep sweet with Beijing. So I needed to look elsewhere to gauge the British mood. Accordingly, I scoured the British media for any signs of reaction.

The BBC provided reports on radio and, with some film footage, on television, in both its domestic and world services. All five "quality" daily London newspapers carried significant reports, each with an eye-catching photo of the march, on their news pages. In addition to details about the rally, reporters for the Financial Times, which covered the event two days running, ventured the opinion that "the march is a victory for the democratic movement", and that "[Beijing's] attempts to contain [Hong Kong's] democratic aspirations are not working".

The Times considered that the "demonstration marks a serious setback to [Beijing's] plans to reintegrate Hong Kong into the Chinese heartland", and also remarked on the steps taken by the mainland authorities to keep mainland visitors away from Hong Kong on July 1. The Daily Telegraph noted a "nervous presence of spectators from the mainland", and referred to the publicity given by Xinhua to the opening of the PLA barracks to visitors on the same day.

The Guardian contrasted the huge numbers in the rally with the modest attendance at the official flag ceremony at Bauhinia Square, while The Independent adopted a more tongue-in-cheek line, focusing as much on banners calling for the Yuen Long crocodile to be freed and on a Union flag carried by an evidently confused England football supporter, as on the political circumstances.

Despite all that coverage, the rally provoked no commentary on the editorial or opinion pages in the following days. What was covered? Well, on July 2 each paper, not surprisingly, carried a leading article relating to Saddam Hussein's first appearance in court in Baghdad on the previous day.

Other topics varied, ranging from the ousting of the chairman of the underperforming British supermarket group, Sainsbury's, to the spread of infections in British hospitals, the oil price, defence spending, the arrival of the space probe in the vicinity of Saturn, and the resignation of the UK finance minister's chief economic adviser to stand for election to parliament. None of these may strike one as especially riveting subjects, but they were presumably all deemed to be of more appeal or relevance to British readers than the political evolution of an erstwhile colony.

Or maybe there is some sort of subconscious embarrassment within the British establishment at never having led Hong Kong very far towards democracy under British rule, which disposes the British, collectively, to instinctively shy away from addressing the issue. Too eager expressions of support for Hong Kong democracy may too often be met by critical reminders of that past neglect.

It is not easy to appreciate the true mood of Hong Kong from afar. Anyway, to British eyes, sad to say, Hong Kong is probably appearing more and more remote.

Tony Latter is a visiting professor at the University of Hong Kong.


(Edit: D'oh! Forgot I'm not on my computer ATM. I'll introduce you all to my good friend Peggydog soon )

 

[Concrete Meadow]

Welcome to the here and now, Peggydog or, as Jessie would have said, "welcome to the machine!"

And kudos to all of you who continue to contribute ideas, news, sighs, et al, on a an island so close to our hearts. The plight of the people of Hong Kong is complex and it will take many years to resolve (or if it will ever be resolved). Your posts here are glimmers of hope that one day, we will prevail. Please, don't abuse each other but do keep this thread alive.

Me? I have a few minutes' free time between research projects so I have looked up these links -

http://www.britishconsulate.org.hk/english/bchk/HK_Pol_Sys.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/19/newsid_2538000/2538857.stm

Ah, memories.

 

[Jessiedog]

Hongkong will one day be democratic but those who have experience of trying to make an elephant move at a pace it doesn't want to or physically can, realise the enormity of the situation/problems that confront China at these times.

But Thomas, you have yet to put forth any reasoned arguments here......Hence I repeat:

Hi Thomas,

Hmmmm.....Here we go again......

Would you please be more explicit about (specificy,) these "grave consequences for the whole of China", should HK enjoy democracy in 2007/08?

Would you also please clearly elucidate how our (the HK peeps) demands have/are creating "instability" on the mainland?

Further, please clarify how this this impacting you?

Perhaps then I could address your concerns.

Thanks,



Woof

If you have indeed studied the situation, surely it behoves you to at least iterate some of your thoughts? I've asked you to about a half dozen times.



Woof