Hong Kong: China's Last Words?

[Jessiedog]

I think you should move!

It was pretty obvious that HK was going down hill from day one of the handover. You say the educated people are leaving but big business has been leaving for ages. HK is no longer the pan-Asian power house it once was. Singapore has done very well in becoming the Asian headquarters of many global corporations. And those companies that want access to the Chinese market are increasingly heading to Shanghai and this will continue...

Downhill since day one, eh?

I don't really buy that (apart from some of the machinations of the Provisional Legislature in July 1997, which had limited practical impact). Sounds a bit like the "Death of Hong Kong" article published in (I think) Time Magazine, just before the handover. A bit premature it was.

Yes, we have tremendous problems here and yes, we need to be constantly vigilant (which we are), but HK is still a GREAT place to live (see my next post).

We are, IMO, still a Pan-Asian powerhouse. Sure we've been battered by the Asian Financial crisis (six years of constant deflation anyone? Property prices MORE THAN 70% DOWN, from the market peak. Salaries halfed in some instances, real unemployment of over 10%, etc) and are currently struggling with our constitutional future, but do not write us off too soon. We have reinvented ourselves many times over the decades and emerged stronger from many a crisis. I believe we have the commitment, dedication, flexibility and capacity to do so once again. Watch this space!

Singapore is indeed making incremental gains in attracting regional HQ's, mainly through huge tax concessions and other favourable treatment (level playing field my arse). The idea that S'pore threatens HK, however, in this domain, is laughable.

Despite NOT offering tax breaks, etc. HK is a million miles ahead of S'pore in attracting foriegn companies and likely to remain so.

To give just one example:

Singapore to date has lured some 43 foriegn banks to operate in the city state. Hong Kong has over 500 foriegn banks operating out of the (Special Administrative) Region.

Touche!

I agree that Shanghai is emerging fast as a centre for attracting foriegn companies - this is as it should be and is a good thing. Hong Kong remains, however, the centre of choice and until Shanghai can offer the same advantages as HK (financial, design, marketing and logistics expertise, rule of law, (relatively) level playing field, independent judiciary, solid civil service infrastructure, lack of corruption, "Asias Finest" police force, etc, etc.), this will still be the case.

Many analysts reckon that Shanghai remains about 10 - 15 years behind Hong Kong in these areas and, will struggle to catch up due to the inherant problems in China. HK, meanwhile, is not standing still and is progressing steadily in all these areas.




Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

Heathcliff,

I posted this on the Travel forum a wee while back:


#9 18-06-2004, 05:49 PM
Jessiedog
Keeping the faith. Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 752

Been here nearly 11 years now and frankly, it's still one of the best cities on the planet (and oi've bin around abit).

Tolerant, safe, dynamic, (almost entirely) corruption free, efficient, superb entertainment and with bags of personal freedom.

Politically its one of the most exciting places too ATM. Where else could you find (as in HK last July the 1st) about 750,000 people (over 10% of the population) waiting for hours in 32C degrree heat, just to START the 4 km march to the seat of executive govt. AND not have a single incident, a single arrest or a single injury (I did hear of a sprained ankle, but that's just hearsay)?

I doesn't have to be expensive to live (Happy hour 2:00pm - 10:00pm, less than two quid a pint in a few places I know in Wanchai, 20 B&H = a bit under 3 quid), you just have to know what's what. Public transport (buses, tubes, ferries, etc.) are between about 1/4, to as little as 1/10 of the price of London, rents are currently cheaper. Clothing is a snip.

The exchange rate is extremely favourable for travellers holding Sterling too ATM and this really helps to stretch the pounds.

A very good time to make a reconnaisance mission I'd say. The July 1st march-for-democracay this year should be a brilliant event.

Oh! Except that it's toooooooooo hot and humid at the moment (32C and 90% this afternoon - 30C, 77% now [6:00pmish]).

Aaaaaanyway, I'm off to grab a Friday evening G&T, ice and slice, and sit on the balcony for at bit. Then cooking fresh tomato soup and dry-curried chicken thighs with corn on the cob. Yum!

Tomorrow, it's down to Stanley Bay for a bit of kayaking and then beer at The Smugglers (Inn) after and maybe dinner at a local cheapie Dai Pai Dong.

Hiking in the Lantau hills on Sunday.

The Dragon Boat races are next Tuesday.

Yup - It's still a great place.



Woof


And it IS a great place.

One of the best things is the personal safety. There are not many cities where women can walk home alone (and drunk) in the wee hours of Sunday morn' after a Saturday night out, and not even think that they may need to worry about being hassled, harrassed, molested, mugged, raped, or murdered. Where (young) kids can walk out alone at night on the streets, with little (if any) chance of being molested, attacked or abducted. This, in and of itself, places (for me) Hong Kong WAY up on the list of "places to live".

I, for one, will not be leaving in a hurry. On the contrary, I will be staying and fighting for my home to ensure that we create a better future for the next generation.



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

So!

Saturday now. Off kayaking again this afternoon, down in the Bay at Stanley. Bliss!

And I've got me boots sorted (new laces) and me white tee-shirt ready. This Thursday (1st of July), we march again for demacracy.

"Dong King Wah....Haaaaa Toy!" (Tung Chee Hwa....Stand Down!)



Power To The People!



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

This was last year........

Woof

 

[ska invita]

this may not be the most popular view, but a senior hk citizen friend of mine has this to say about the pro-democracy movement:

Firstly,remember that under British rule there was no democracy: The governor of HK was appointed by the queen. Secondly, at present you are able to vote for other officials, just not for the head of state.

My friends argument is that China is undergoing an enourmous change, and like turning an oil tanker you have to stear very carefully. The economic "miracle" that is taking place in China (200 million people lifted off the poverty line) is an achievement that has had delegates from around the world meeting with the Chinese to understand the secret.

It is important to look at Gorbachev and the same turning of a communist superstate into a free market player, which as anyone who has been to Russia of late will tell you, was a disaster. China has held a tighter grip on the wheel to its, and its peoples benefit.

The point being that this is not an opportune time to experiment with Democracy; democracy requires stability and to the contrary China is in the midst of a revolution. My friend says he wants to see democracy in HK, but he wants to see China succesfully reposition itself first.

Although I don't know how true or valid an analysis of the China-HK relationship this is, I do not agree with the general priniciple that automaticaly and irrespectively bringing in democracy is a "good thing". Unfortunately reality is often more complex than that.

++Chinese human right violation is another subject completely, and there is no argument on earth not to put a stop to the violations at once++

 

[Thomas77]

Jessiedog

Obviously, I don't speak for everyone and am generalising

Jessiedog I have read quite a lot of your posts on HK/China relations and I think that you should really think a lot more carefully about the above quote.

You do genralise quite a lot and I'm not sure that you consider all the arguments for and against..

May I point you in the direction of a recent post by niksativa.. A well written post that highlights some pertinent points. There is a lot of change taking place in China at the moment change that not only affects the population of China but short/long term the stability of the world.. Now the government in China although not perfect is trying to manage this change as best it can.

Do you really think that Democracy for HK should take priority for the Chinese over all the other problems facing the country/government.. Maybe if you care to extend your sights further afield you may realise that the democracy you crave so much is failing the people the world over.

Oh and dont you think

we are eminently suited to participate in the process of electing our leaders. We are mature, well educated and pragmantic

this applies elsewhere.. It never stopped America/Britain going to war in Iraq. Democracy, enjoy your march because if and when you get it in HK as incorporated/promised in the constitution by the Chinese govt (don't forget) you will most probably be marching again sometime soon for something else!!

The fact that 750,000 people can march in H/K with little problems is that not a testimony the freedom's extended by China?

 

[TeeJay]

Thomas77 I would like to know where you live since you seem very blazé about human rights and democracy, which makes me think that you have never been deprived of these rights and don't even realise how much you value them.

You say:

Do you really think that Democracy for HK should take priority for the Chinese over all the other problems facing the country/government..

Without explaining why it is an "either/or" situation, and you then make some spurious points about the Iraq war which you don't explain how it's relevant to democracy and human rights in HK and China. You seem to be arguing that if "democracy" has it faults then any system of dictatorship and tyranny is therefore better - an utterly invalid argumet if there ever was one.

The list of things that Amnesty International complains about in its most recent report on China include:

human rights violations.
no freedom of expression and association
torture and ill-treatment, including to obtain 'confessions'
executions (including without due process) AI had recorded 1,639 death sentences and 726 executions (for 2003) although the true figures were believed to be much higher.
restrictions on cultural and religious rights (of Muslim Uighurs, Tibetans, etc). This includes closure of mosques, restrictions on Uighur language and banning of some Uighur books and journals.
house demolitions and evictions (eg Shanghai and Beijing)
arrest and intimidation of lawyers assisting in cases of arrested protestors
independent trade unions remaining illegal (eg 3 years in prison)
Detention and arrest of protestors against mass lay-offs, low wages and corrupt management (eg 7 years in prison)
Arrest and intimidation of medical specialists and others who attempted to raise public awareness of HIV/AIDS
Detention and beating of people suffering from HIV/AIDS after participating in protests relating to lack of access to medical care.
Arbitrarily detention, torture and ill-treated of Falun Gong members and Christians (more than 800 people detained in connection with the Falun Gong had died since 1999, mostly as a result of torture or ill-treatment).
Detention and imprisoned for accessing or circulating "politically sensitive information" on the Internet. (up to 12 years in prison)
Use on prisoners of kicking, beating, electric shocks, suspension by the arms, shackling in painful positions, and sleep and food deprivation and rape and sexual abuse.
“Re-education through labour” - the detention for up to three years without charge or trial.
Widespread lack of due legal process or access to lawyers or family members for detainees.
Denial of refugee status to incoming North Koreans in breach of the UN Convention to which China is signed up.
12 Years in prison for "distributing material calling for independence for Tibet, painting a Tibetan flag and possessing photographs of the Dalai Lama."

Thomas77, which of these things do you think help Chinese people? Which of these things would you be happy to have done to you? Why are you trying to defend them? Do you really like supporting such oppressive and injust actions?

 

[Heathcliff]

And it IS a great place.

One of the best things is the personal safety. There are not many cities where women can walk home alone (and drunk) in the wee hours of Sunday morn' after a Saturday night out, and not even think that they may need to worry about being hassled, harrassed, molested, mugged, raped, or murdered. Where (young) kids can walk out alone at night on the streets, with little (if any) chance of being molested, attacked or abducted. This, in and of itself, places (for me) Hong Kong WAY up on the list of "places to live".

I, for one, will not be leaving in a hurry. On the contrary, I will be staying and fighting for my home to ensure that we create a better future for the next generation.


I will comment on the other parts of your post shortly, when I have time. You say you don't get hastled in HK? What nationality are you? If you were a Japanese girl you would get a hastled a lot... Chinese men give Japanese girls a lot of shit... they seem to think they are dirtier than Chinese girls!

Woof[/QUOTE]

 

[Thomas77]

Thomas77 I would like to know where you live since you seem very blazé about human rights and democracy, which makes me think that you have never been deprived of these rights and don't even realise how much you value them.

I live in the UK and value human rights and democracy just as much as you. However I like to try and see both sides of the debate. I dont see any massive documented evidence of human rights abuses taking place in Hong Kong at the moment. Do you care to enlighten me? I also dont recall any massive outcry from the inhabitants of Honk Kong about the injustices taking place on the mainland 10-20-30 years ago..
If there were point me to the evidence..

Without explaining why it is an "either/or" situation, and you then make some spurious points about the Iraq war which you don't explain how it's relevant to democracy and human rights in HK and China. You seem to be arguing that if "democracy" has it faults then any system of dictatorship and tyranny is therefore better - an utterly invalid argumet if there ever was one.

It may be a spurious point to you but that does not surprise me.. The point I'm making is that even with democracy, the human rights and other freedoms you desire don't always give you the results you would like to see..

Governments will undertake what they see as the neccessary action to get their desired results. Democratic or not!! China/America/Britain etc..With or without the will of the majority of people.. Is that simplier for you?

human rights violations.
no freedom of expression and association
torture and ill-treatment, including to obtain 'confessions'
executions (including without due process) AI had recorded 1,639 death sentences and 726 executions (for 2003) although the true figures were believed to be much higher.
restrictions on cultural and religious rights (of Muslim Uighurs, Tibetans, etc). This includes closure of mosques, restrictions on Uighur language and banning of some Uighur books and journals.
house demolitions and evictions (eg Shanghai and Beijing)
arrest and intimidation of lawyers assisting in cases of arrested protestors
independent trade unions remaining illegal (eg 3 years in prison)
Detention and arrest of protestors against mass lay-offs, low wages and corrupt management (eg 7 years in prison)
Arrest and intimidation of medical specialists and others who attempted to raise public awareness of HIV/AIDS
Detention and beating of people suffering from HIV/AIDS after participating in protests relating to lack of access to medical care.
Arbitrarily detention, torture and ill-treated of Falun Gong members and Christians (more than 800 people detained in connection with the Falun Gong had died since 1999, mostly as a result of torture or ill-treatment).
Detention and imprisoned for accessing or circulating "politically sensitive information" on the Internet. (up to 12 years in prison)
Use on prisoners of kicking, beating, electric shocks, suspension by the arms, shackling in painful positions, and sleep and food deprivation and rape and sexual abuse.
“Re-education through labour” - the detention for up to three years without charge or trial.
Widespread lack of due legal process or access to lawyers or family members for detainees.
Denial of refugee status to incoming North Koreans in breach of the UN Convention to which China is signed up.
12 Years in prison for "distributing material calling for independence for Tibet, painting a Tibetan flag and possessing photographs of the Dalai Lama."

Thomas77, which of these things do you think help Chinese people? Which of these things would you be happy to have done to you? Why are you trying to defend them? Do you really like supporting such oppressive and injust actions?

None of these things help Chinese people and if I'm honest with you I dont fancy any of it applying to me!! But maybe you could answer something for me.. Do you think delivering democracy at this moment in time to H/K is going to stop the above abuses in mainland China? Or do you really care? Is it not just conveniant for the peoplof H/K to highlight them at this momnet in time to aid their own cause? Why dont you give the Chinese government time to deliver on their promise set out in the constitution, democracy by what ever the date they promised!! I cant recall at this moment.. As I said earlier the fact that 750,000 people can march up and down Hong Kong unrestricted proves to me that progress is being made somewhere in China!!

 

[TeeJay]

I dont see any massive documented evidence of human rights abuses taking place in Hong Kong at the moment. Do you care to enlighten me? I also dont recall any massive outcry from the inhabitants of Honk Kong about the injustices taking place on the mainland 10-20-30 years ago.. If there were point me to the evidence..

I think I will leave this to the people posting here who live in HK, since they will be able to answer this far better than me. My comments were drawn simply from the Amnesty International 2004 report on China (which covers Hong Kong): http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/chn-summary-eng I am not an expert in this topic.

It may be a spurious point to you but that does not surprise me.. The point I'm making is that even with democracy, the human rights and other freedoms you desire don't always give you the results you would like to see..

I said it was a suprious point because you are defending dictatorship on the basis that democracy isn't perfect. I would say that this isn't a coherent argument, for a whole range of reasons, and you haven't explained why denial of human rights and/or democracy is actually necessary for addressing social and economic problems in China. let alone why it is a valid trade off.

None of these things help Chinese people and if I'm honest with you I dont fancy any of it applying to me!!

Nice of you to be honest about this. Why are you defending the Chinese government then?

Do you think delivering democracy at this moment in time to H/K is going to stop the above abuses in mainland China?

I think it would definitely help and would be a step in the right direction.

Is it not just conveniant for the peoplof H/K to highlight them at this momnet in time to aid their own cause? Why dont you give the Chinese government time to deliver on their promise set out in the constitution, democracy by what ever the date they promised!! I cant recall at this moment.. As I said earlier the fact that 750,000 people can march up and down Hong Kong unrestricted proves to me that progress is being made somewhere in China!!

Again, I will leave it to some of the people who are more closely involved with HK and China to answer this one. I have only been there once, briefly, and I do not know a large amount of detail about this. I do however support democracy and human rights around the world, no matter who the victims are.

 

[Jessiedog]

I will comment on the other parts of your post shortly, when I have time. You say you don't get hastled in HK? What nationality are you? If you were a Japanese girl you would get a hastled a lot... Chinese men give Japanese girls a lot of shit... they seem to think they are dirtier than Chinese girls!

Woof

[/QUOTE]

A rather sweeping statement Heathcliff, no?

Any specific examples of crimes committed against Japanese women in HK by Hong Kong men? Frankly, I cannot recall a single incident being reported over the last few years. We take the issue of crime against tourists VERY seriously.

If not, perhaps you'd care to elucidate - is this just one example that was recounted to you, or......? What specifically makes you write this?

Indeed, my Japanese girlfriends often tell me how great HK is, especially with respect to gender equality. They feel that women here are treated with far more respect than in Japan, particularly in the workplace.

And, although we suffer from our share of racist tendancies in society - such racism (effectively) never ends in any physicality - unlike the situation in the UK, where I am led to believe there are any number of violent race-related crimes.

When compared to almost any other major conurbation (London, Paris, New York, Mexico City, Manila, Jarkarta, Shanghai, etc.), our overall crime rate is exceedingly low, violent crime is negligable, and "street crime" (robbery, mugging, etc.) virtually unheard of.

It really is astonishing for a region with a population of over seven million - most living higgledly piggledy on top of each other. And it's great!! It makes SUCH a difference to the quality of life.



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

Thomas,

Yer talking shite. You disparage my knowledge of my own home and yet appear to know next to nothing about the situation in HK.

Please explain exactly why HK should NOT have direct elections for the whole legislature and the Chief Executive in 2007 and 2008 respectively.

It is allowed in the Basic Law.

Why not?



Woof

 

[Thomas77]

Thomas,

Yer talking shite. You disparage my knowledge of my own home and yet appear to know next to nothing about the situation in HK.

Please explain exactly why HK should NOT have direct elections for the whole legislature and the Chief Executive in 2007 and 2008 respectively.

It is allowed in the Basic Law.

Why not?

The above just proves to me that you and people like you in H/K wouldn't know what to do with democracy? Yer talking shite!! Well at least you have proved to me that SHITE is a language you are well versed in!!

Just answer the points in my above post to TEEJAY.. Surely given your unbiased extensive knowledge on H/K-China relations they are not that difficult..

 

[Thomas77]

Jessiedog

When compared to almost any other major conurbation (London, Paris, New York, Mexico City, Manila, Jarkarta, Shanghai, etc.), our overall crime rate is exceedingly low, violent crime is negligable, and "street crime" (robbery, mugging, etc.) virtually unheard of.

It really is astonishing for a region with a population of over seven million - most living higgledly piggledy on top of each other. And it's great!! It makes SUCH a difference to the quality of life.

Yes Jessie dog the authorities in H/K do quite well when it comes to crime. One successful export from the former colony is the triad gangs that have been scattered all over major cities in the world. On a regularly basis when the extortion, gambling, drug dealing and prostitution rackets go wrong you can see them dishing out their kind of justice. Not a pretty sight..

 

[Heathcliff]

A rather sweeping statement Heathcliff, no?

Any specific examples of crimes committed against Japanese women in HK by Hong Kong men? Frankly, I cannot recall a single incident being reported over the last few years. We take the issue of crime against tourists VERY seriously.

If not, perhaps you'd care to elucidate - is this just one example that was recounted to you, or......? What specifically makes you write this?

Indeed, my Japanese girlfriends often tell me how great HK is, especially with respect to gender equality. They feel that women here are treated with far more respect than in Japan, particularly in the workplace.

And, although we suffer from our share of racist tendancies in society - such racism (effectively) never ends in any physicality - unlike the situation in the UK, where I am led to believe there are any number of violent race-related crimes.

When compared to almost any other major conurbation (London, Paris, New York, Mexico City, Manila, Jarkarta, Shanghai, etc.), our overall crime rate is exceedingly low, violent crime is negligable, and "street crime" (robbery, mugging, etc.) virtually unheard of.

It really is astonishing for a region with a population of over seven million - most living higgledly piggledy on top of each other. And it's great!! It makes SUCH a difference to the quality of life.



Woof[/QUOTE]




I never claimed HK to be anything like Manila.

This is based on the collective experiences of Japanese I know in HK. I know a fair few as I used to live in Tokyo and have visited HK on a number of occasions and know a fair few people there. All the Jap girls I know complain of being followed by Chinese men from time to time and of having to put up with continual verbal harrassment as well.

 

[Jessiedog]

The above just proves to me that you and people like you in H/K wouldn't know what to do with democracy? Yer talking shite!! Well at least you have proved to me that SHITE is a language you are well versed in!!

Just answer the points in my above post to TEEJAY.. Surely given your unbiased extensive knowledge on H/K-China relations they are not that difficult..

You have provided no reason that HK should not have democracy other than to say that democracy is not perfect.

You claim to value democracy. So doi we here in Hong Kong.

Any REAL reasons, or are you just babbling uninformed nonsense?

I ask again. Why not?



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

A rather sweeping statement Heathcliff, no?

Any specific examples of crimes committed against Japanese women in HK by Hong Kong men? Frankly, I cannot recall a single incident being reported over the last few years. We take the issue of crime against tourists VERY seriously.

If not, perhaps you'd care to elucidate - is this just one example that was recounted to you, or......? What specifically makes you write this?

Indeed, my Japanese girlfriends often tell me how great HK is, especially with respect to gender equality. They feel that women here are treated with far more respect than in Japan, particularly in the workplace.

And, although we suffer from our share of racist tendancies in society - such racism (effectively) never ends in any physicality - unlike the situation in the UK, where I am led to believe there are any number of violent race-related crimes.

When compared to almost any other major conurbation (London, Paris, New York, Mexico City, Manila, Jarkarta, Shanghai, etc.), our overall crime rate is exceedingly low, violent crime is negligable, and "street crime" (robbery, mugging, etc.) virtually unheard of.

It really is astonishing for a region with a population of over seven million - most living higgledly piggledy on top of each other. And it's great!! It makes SUCH a difference to the quality of life.



Woof

I never claimed HK to be anything like Manila.

This is based on the collective experiences of Japanese I know in HK. I know a fair few as I used to live in Tokyo and have visited HK on a number of occasions and know a fair few people there. All the Jap girls I know complain of being followed by Chinese men from time to time and of having to put up with continual verbal harrassment as well.[/QUOTE]

Sorry the peeps you know were followed and harrased - a police report would've been properly investigated. That said, if "verbal harrasment" is the worst that women have been on the end of here - I sugtgest they truck off to London or New York and try their luck - I'ts all relative.

As I say, my Jappanese girlfriends value the level of gender equlity here compared to Japan.



Woof

 

[Thomas77]

You have provided no reason that HK should not have democracy other than to say that democracy is not perfect.

You claim to value democracy. So doi we here in Hong Kong.

Any REAL reasons, or are you just babbling uninformed nonsense?

I ask again. Why not?

You see Jessiedog I do not have to provide reasons why not!! All I need to know are the reasons why the Chinese government may find it problematic. I also need to have the forsight to see the problems that may occur internally within China if it were to introduce democracy at this time in H/K. Now if you want to understand the situation from the Chinese/World perspective and were willing to debate with this in mind I would take you seriously. However because you do not I just see you for what you are and read all your posts with this in mind..

 

[Jessiedog]

this may not be the most popular view, but a senior hk citizen friend of mine has this to say about the pro-democracy movement:

Firstly,remember that under British rule there was no democracy: The governor of HK was appointed by the queen. Secondly, at present you are able to vote for other officials, just not for the head of state.

My friends argument is that China is undergoing an enourmous change, and like turning an oil tanker you have to stear very carefully. The economic "miracle" that is taking place in China (200 million people lifted off the poverty line) is an achievement that has had delegates from around the world meeting with the Chinese to understand the secret.

It is important to look at Gorbachev and the same turning of a communist superstate into a free market player, which as anyone who has been to Russia of late will tell you, was a disaster. China has held a tighter grip on the wheel to its, and its peoples benefit.

The point being that this is not an opportune time to experiment with Democracy; democracy requires stability and to the contrary China is in the midst of a revolution. My friend says he wants to see democracy in HK, but he wants to see China succesfully reposition itself first.

Although I don't know how true or valid an analysis of the China-HK relationship this is, I do not agree with the general priniciple that automaticaly and irrespectively bringing in democracy is a "good thing". Unfortunately reality is often more complex than that.

++Chinese human right violation is another subject completely, and there is no argument on earth not to put a stop to the violations at once++

Hey nik,

It's an argument I'm intimately familiar with and it is a view commonly held among senior citizens here (I assume you mean this rather than a senior official). The main reasons I think are twofold:

Firstly, the majority of elderly people were "refugees" from the communist regime to the north. They fled China in a constant stream following the communist revolution in 1949 and througout the disasters of the Great Leap Forward and the cultural revolution. They usually arrived in HK with nothing and cared for little other than making enough money to educate their kids and then get away from HK before 1997. They valued stability above all else.

Secondly, the impact of the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong (DAB), a local political party. The DAB is the de-facto Communist Party in Hong Kong. They receive many tens of millions of HK$ each year from Beijing and from large Chinese businesses in China and HK. The Democratic Party meanwhile manages to raise about HK$ 1 million ayear, mostly through selling H$ 20 raffle t9ickets on the streets.

The DAB put their ample resources to work by recruting an extensive network of grassroots workers to give out free rice-bags to the elderly, make sure their drains are kept clean by the appropriate govt. dept and, of course, providing buses to ship them to the polling booth to make their mark for "stability and prosperity". Their voter base is almost entirely among the elderly and uneducated.

I do have some sympathy with the notion that democracy, to function, requires a certain level of social development and wealth and education, although remain to be convinced that China could not liberalise more quickly.

On the other hand, Hong Kong has all the reqisites required for a functioning democracy and is no doubt "ready". Hong Kong is no threat to (the rest of) China. We do not seek independence, just the meaningful autonomy and deocratic reform promised us under the Basic Law. China on the other hand, is a significant threat to HK and since the handover has gradually tightened the screws and threatened our rights and freedoms. Democracy is ultimately the final safeguard in the equation. Without this, we could easily be snuffed out over the coming decades.

Finally, it is important to note that such views are in a minority in HK. In survey after survey after survey over the last few years, some 80% of Hong Kong people have expressed the desire for full democracy to be implemented for the chief executive in 2007 and the legislature in 2008. (Since Beijings recent cultural "revolution" style shennanigans in the region, this has dropped to a current rate of 69%.)

This is not an "experiment" in democracy. Under British rule, the last governor's (Chris Patten's) political reforms (1292 - 1997) we were afforded a fully deomocratically elected 60 seat legislature (too little, much too late, but.....). In July 1997, Beijing threw out these 60 elected peeps and installed 60 unelected sycophants in their place. This "Provisional Legislature" rolled back many of the recently gained freedoms we enjoyed, regressed and rigged the electoral system to ensure a pro-govt/pro-Beijing majority.

There is only one reason to stop democracy being (re)implemented in HK, and that is to ensure tha the Chinese Communist Party can continue to exert their illegitimate influence on the region.

Not a good enough reason in my opinion!

I agree that democracy is not necessarily a panecea for all things good, but then neither is dictatorship. We have now spent seven years under the yoke of an unelected, conservative, incompetent administration (installed by Bejing), which does little for the people of HK and panders to the desires of its masters in Bejing. Thus is the way of (even benign) dictatorship.

All we want is the right to elect and change our leaders so that we can ensure they will represent the interests of the HK people rather than only serve the interests of the Chinese Communist Party in Beijing.

What's wrong with that?

Democracy for the rest of China is an entirely separte issue.



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

You see Jessiedog I do not have to provide reasons why not!! All I need to know are the reasons why the Chinese government may find it problematic. I also need to have the forsight to see the problems that may occur internally within China if it were to introduce democracy at this time in H/K. Now if you want to understand the situation from the Chinese/World perspective and were willing to debate with this in mind I would take you seriously. However because you do not I just see you for what you are and read all your posts with this in mind..

Alright then...


I have been following every utterance from the mainland and have analysed all their so called "reasons". Nothing said so far has amounted to anything more than "HK people are not ready"? No reasons have been given.

So, In your wisdom....

What insights do you have into the thinking of the CCP leadership and why they would find HK democracy "problematic"?

And with your great foresight....

What problems may occur in China as a result of a democratic HK?

Please tell us, do...



(Edit: Or we could simply have a flame war, you adolescent, pucillanemous, inarticulate, ill informed, arrogant cunt! You obviously know absoutely fuck all about Hong Kong and delight in displaying this deficit for all to see. Ya stupid, dribbling wanker, Eh? )





Woof

 

[Thomas77]

Jessiedog

Democracy for the rest of China is an entirely separte issue.

Are you really so niave.. They are inextricably linked. What do you think the effect would be in the rest of China? Do you care what happens in the mainland? It's stupid and incredibly ignorant and arrogant of you to think only about H/K in this way.. Give us democracy.. As for the consequences for the hundreds of millions of people in China well thats for them to think about..

 

[Heathcliff]

I never claimed HK to be anything like Manila.

This is based on the collective experiences of Japanese I know in HK. I know a fair few as I used to live in Tokyo and have visited HK on a number of occasions and know a fair few people there. All the Jap girls I know complain of being followed by Chinese men from time to time and of having to put up with continual verbal harrassment as well.

Sorry the peeps you know were followed and harrased - a police report would've been properly investigated. That said, if "verbal harrasment" is the worst that women have been on the end of here - I sugtgest they truck off to London or New York and try their luck - I'ts all relative.

As I say, my Jappanese girlfriends value the level of gender equlity here compared to Japan.



Woof[/QUOTE]




Considering several of the Japanese girls I know work for Cathay they have visited NYC and London numerous times as well as many other exotic locations. They all say they do appreciate their level of independence in HK and prefer being trolley dolleys to sitting in a Tokyo office all day. So they are happy. But that doesn't mean they feel safer in HK than Tokyo. I don't think they bother with the police as it happens too often. It seems to just be a fact that Chinese men for some reason think Japanese girls are dirty and so they become intrigued by them. I know several Japanese girls that will simply not go out at night unless accompanied by a male or unless in a large group.

 

[Thomas77]

Jessiedog

Or we could simply have a flame war, you adolescent, pucillanemous, inarticulate, ill informed, arrogant cunt! You obviously know absoutely fuck all about Hong Kong and delight in displaying this deficit for all to see. Ya stupid, dribbling wanker, Eh? )

What a good judge of character your are. Its a shame that when someone cant be convinced of the merits or your case that you have to stoop so low with the above.. I bet if you had a stick in your hand right now you may care to extend a whack in my direction.. In my opinion you should maybe leave H/K and think about setting up residence in Beijing. I'm sure if this is your reaction when someone disagrees with you and points out the other side of the argument you would do quite well controling the masses....

 

[Jessiedog]

Jessiedog



What a good judge of character your are. Its a shame that when someone cant be convinced of the merits or your case that you have to stoop so low with the above.. I bet if you had a stick in your hand right now you may care to extend a whack in my direction.. In my opinion you should maybe leave H/K and think about setting up residence in Beijing. I'm sure if this is your reaction when someone disagrees with you and points out the other side of the argument you would do quite well controling the masses....

Hey, it was an "either/or".

You (again) ignored the "either".

Got any arguments?

Let's have them!

You've been a bit short on those so far.



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

To reiterate.

I can see NO valid reason to delay full democracy in HK.

Please enlighten me if you have some information that may disbuse me of this notion.

Thx.



Woof

 

[Thomas77]

Jessiedog

Hey, it was an "either/or".

You (again) ignored the "either".

Got any arguments?

Let's have them!

You've been a bit short on those so far.

I'm sure I may have told you this before.. But I only argue/debate with well informed and rational individuals. Unfortunatley for you and me you don't fall in to any of these.


Jessiedog

To reiterate.

I can see NO valid reason to delay full democracy in HK.

Please enlighten me if you have some information that may disbuse me of this notion.

I can see plenty and I don't wish too waste my time trying to educate someone who has not taken her/his time to make themselves familair with both sides of the argument. Although to assist you in your fight against your own ignorance you may care to cast a glance over a number of articles that have appeared in the Far Eastern Economic Review in the last six months. In fact anyone who has any kind of interest in H/K-China relations would be better served to follow the writings in this kind of publication as opposed to the rancid outbursts by you and people like you on these boards..

Woof woof yelp..

 

[Jessiedog]

Jessiedog



Are you really so niave.. They are inextricably linked. What do you think the effect would be in the rest of China? Do you care what happens in the mainland? It's stupid and incredibly ignorant and arrogant of you to think only about H/K in this way.. Give us democracy.. As for the consequences for the hundreds of millions of people in China well thats for them to think about..

As I have repeatedly asked....

Pray do tell....

Or are you keeping your "knowledge" of the impact a democratic HK would have on China as a "closely guarded secret"?

Please share.



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

Jessiedog




I'm sure I may have told you this before.. But I only argue/debate with well informed and rational individuals. Unfortunatley for you and me you don't fall in to any of these.


Jessiedog



I can see plenty and I don't wish too waste my time trying to educate someone who has not taken her/his time to make themselves familair with both sides of the argument. Although to assist you in your fight against your own ignorance you may care to cast a glance over a number of articles that have appeared in the Far Eastern Economic Review in the last six months. In fact anyone who has any kind of interest in H/K-China relations would be better served to follow the writings in this kind of publication as opposed to the rancid outbursts by you and people like you on these boards..

Woof woof yelp..

So you STILL refuse to share your superdoopertotallyindepthunderstaningofandinsightsinto China.

Oh well.

Guess that speaks for itself then.

Next!!



Woof

 

[Thomas77]

Jessidog

As I have repeatedly asked....

Pray do tell....

Or are you keeping your "knowledge" of the impact a democratic HK would have on China as a "closely guarded secret"?

Please share.

Jessidog

The impact of a democratic H/K is no gaurded secret.. It just takes a little common sense, a tiny bit of research and an ability to see both sides of the debate.. If this is something you are not capable of understanding well my dear thats your problem.. I have pointed you in the direction where you can alleviate your ignorance. See below.. Also if you care do a search on some of the websites of the broadsheet newspapers both here in the UK, States and Europe this may also assist you in your endevour..

I have learned from previous mistakes that to try and educate a fool who's mind is closed is a thankless task for that reason I will ignore your request.. If on the other hand you do some research and accept at the very least that there are reasons why democracy at this time for H/K would be difficult for China then I would at least take the time to consider your comments..


Thomas77

I can see plenty and I don't wish too waste my time trying to educate someone who has not taken her/his time to make themselves familair with both sides of the argument. Although to assist you in your fight against your own ignorance you may care to cast a glance over a number of articles that have appeared in the Far Eastern Economic Review in the last six months. In fact anyone who has any kind of interest in H/K-China relations would be better served to follow the writings in this kind of publication as opposed to the rancid outbursts by you and people like you on these boards..

 

[Jessiedog]

Sorry the peeps you know were followed and harrased - a police report would've been properly investigated. That said, if "verbal harrasment" is the worst that women have been on the end of here - I sugtgest they truck off to London or New York and try their luck - I'ts all relative.

As I say, my Jappanese girlfriends value the level of gender equlity here compared to Japan.



Woof

Considering several of the Japanese girls I know work for Cathay they have visited NYC and London numerous times as well as many other exotic locations. They all say they do appreciate their level of independence in HK and prefer being trolley dolleys to sitting in a Tokyo office all day. So they are happy. But that doesn't mean they feel safer in HK than Tokyo. I don't think they bother with the police as it happens too often. It seems to just be a fact that Chinese men for some reason think Japanese girls are dirty and so they become intrigued by them. I know several Japanese girls that will simply not go out at night unless accompanied by a male or unless in a large group.

Again, like I said, sorry the peeps that you know felt this way.

Glad to hear tho' that they were in no way assalted or physically threatened. Men leer at women the world over. But I'd be interested to hear more on your concept of it being a "fact" that Chinese men think Japanese girls are particularly "dirty". Hmmmmmm.

The reality is that they undoubtedly are safer in HK than in Tokyo. Crime rates are low in Tokyo, but somewhat higher than in HK, including street and violent crime. (It goes up and down, but HK is generally lower).

I do find the idea that the girls you know won't go out at night alone quite strange. This is certainly not the case with my Japanese girlfriends (living in HK). Perhaps there is simply a cultural misunderstanding, or your friends are just "over perceiving" the risks?



Woof