Hindu Nationalism.

[frogwoman]

I asked a question in another thread but I don't think I got a reply. Basically, I was wondering - do hindu nationalists in india, such as the BJP, have any legitimate grievances? I had heard that the Indian government, in its teaching of history in schools, had brushed certain incidents under the carpet, and that it had some "positive discrimination" towards muslims and other groups, that went a bit too far.

admittedly, i did read this on quite a nasty anti-islam website, but i was wondering whether there was any validity to their claims.

also, where/why did it originate? and how much of a threat are they, in terms of things like terrorism? i have been reading up a little bit about it and it seems completely bonkers

 

[Detroit City]

all i know is that hindus and moslems don't play nice and this whole kashmire stalemate is making things worse. thats what happens when you get a bunch of uneducated and poor people living in the same place.

its been going on for ages and the british made the situation even worse by playing both groups against each other

 

[Dr Jon]

Have a google for Shiv Sena, like the Hindu Nazi party.

Mad as a box of frogs they are. The Indian authorities have been trying to stop their shit stirring recently, but after the latest outrage in Mumbai, I fear that their extreme brand of fuckwittery will become more popular.

 

[hipipol]

It goes back a long way....
The Moghuls

The Moghuls were the descendants of Timur the Lame - the guy who laid waste to Central Asian, he being descended fro Geghis Kahn - huff said about the families genetic material!
Aurangzeb was a particular thorn to the Hindus
Shiv Sena - a virulent disease of a "party" - The Army of Shiva, named after Shivaji the commader of the Marathi (Shiv Sena is very much a Marathi party, based soley in Maharashtra State, whose boundaries roughly co-incide with the Marathi state and whose capitol, Pune, is the same as the confederacy) Confederacys army that repeatedly sacked Delhi in 1800/03, only to be driven off by the Brits(in the form of the East India Company), who arrived posing as saviours then took over.
The fact that the Marathis - Hindus- weakened the Muslim Moghul court so that the Kafir Brits could take over probably rankles these current Jihadis - but the language used by Shivaji was very similar, about the depradtions of the Muslims, pulling down Hindu temples, forcing Hindus to pay jizya - a tax all unbelievers had to pay for Muslim "protection", plus taxing all pilgrims to Hindu shrines - all that was virtually every Hindu in the country - so the emnity is deep

More recently Gandhiji was killed by a gunman who was a member of a Hindu nationalist group, the RSS, (with ties to Shiv Sena via Bal Thakry, Shivs founders, Dad) because they said he was "soft" on the Muslims
As for special "positive discrimination" for Muslims there are none I know of enshrined in law. If anthying the Scheduled Caste Acts - which sets minimum numbers for various "backward" castes in Govt employ only refer to Hindus - there are also specific dispensations given to "tribals", such as the semi-nomadic Gujars - but none are on religious grounds.
Thats sort of brief overview

 

[iROBOT]

It goes back a long way....
The Moghuls

The Moghuls were the descendants of Timur the Lame - the guy who laid waste to Central Asian, he being descended fro Geghis Kahn - huff said about the families genetic material!
Aurangzeb was a particular thorn to the Hindus
Shiv Sena - a virulent disease of a "party" - The Army of Shiva, named after Shivaji the commader of the Marathi (Shiv Sena is very much a Marathi party, based soley in Maharashtra State, whose boundaries roughly co-incide with the Marathi state and whose capitol, Pune, is the same as the confederacy) Confederacys army that repeatedly sacked Delhi in 1800/03, only to be driven off by the Brits(in the form of the East India Company), who arrived posing as saviours then took over.
The fact that the Marathis - Hindus- weakened the Muslim Moghul court so that the Kafir Brits could take over probably rankles these current Jihadis - but the language used by Shivaji was very similar, about the depradtions of the Muslims, pulling down Hindu temples, forcing Hindus to pay jizya - a tax all unbelievers had to pay for Muslim "protection", plus taxing all pilgrims to Hindu shrines - all that was virtually every Hindu in the country - so the emnity is deep

More recently Gandhiji was killed by a gunman who was a member of a Hindu nationalist group, the RSS, (with ties to Shiv Sena via Bal Thakry, Shivs founders, Dad) because they said he was "soft" on the Muslims
As for special "positive discrimination" for Muslims there are none I know of enshrined in law. If anthying the Scheduled Caste Acts - which sets minimum numbers for various "backward" castes in Govt employ only refer to Hindus - there are also specific dispensations given to "tribals", such as the semi-nomadic Gujars - but none are on religious grounds.
Thats sort of brief overview

Maybe you should be looking harder.

Muslims in India are governed by "The Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act, 1937."[30] It directs the application of Muslim Personal Law to Muslims in marriage, mahr (dower), divorce, maintenance, gifts, waqf, wills and inheritance.[31] The courts generally apply the Hanafi Sunni law, with exceptions made only for those areas where Shia law differs substantially from Sunni practice.
Although the Indian constitution provides equal rights to all citizens irrespective of their religion, Article 44 recommends a Uniform civil code. The attempts by successive political leadership in the country to integrate Indian society under common civil code is strongly resisted and is viewed by Indian Muslims as an attempt to dilute the cultural identity of the minority groups of the country. Thus in India there exists the unique situation where proponents of a secular law are deemed fascist while those who support the separate Sharia law for Indian Muslims are considered secular. The All India Muslim Personal Law Board was established for the protection and continued applicability of “Muslim Personal Law” i.e. Shariat Application Act in India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India

 

[hipipol]

Maybe you should be looking harder.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India

In what way is that "positive discrimination"?
All India Muslim Personal Law Board is just that, it applies at a personal level to Muslims, NOT to anyone else. It is also true to say that say a Muslim woman who does not agree with her husband divorcing her has recourse to the Civil Courts who OVERIDE the sharia ruling
Indian papers as you well know, are full of this tuff

Being Gujerati you will know that your state has an appalling record with regard to communal agression towards its Muslims - THE most disgustingly bigoted people I have ever spoken to about communal problems have Hindus from that state - certainly my Punjabi/Goan/Keralan/Dehlie friends regard Gujerat as backward - I supect that may apply to many other areas of India also

 

[iROBOT]

In what way is that "positive discrimination"?
All India Muslim Personal Law Board is just that, it applies at a personal level to Muslims, NOT to anyone else. It is also true to say that say a Muslim woman who does not agree with her husband divorcing her has recourse to the Civil Courts who OVERIDE the sharia ruling
Indian papers as you well know, are full of this tuff

Being Gujerati you will know that your state has an appalling record with regard to communal agression towards its Muslims - THE most disgustingly bigoted people I have ever spoken to about communal problems have Hindus from that state - certainly my Punjabi/Goan/Keralan/Dehlie friends regard Gujerat as backward - I supect that may apply to many other areas of India also

That type of law is an anathema i a secular state. Its positive in a sense that the Muslims have a separate law reserved or them (a situation that would be UNACCEPTABLE in any "white" country) And the views of Gujarati are based on the actions of Muslim rulers (and their followers) from the past and present (ie Mumbai now)....

The Muslim conquest of the Indian subcontinent led to widespread carnage because Muslims regarded the Hindus as infidels and therefore slaughtered and converted millions of Hindus. Will Durant argued in his 1935 book "The Story of Civilization: Our Oriental Heritage" (page 459):

“ The Mohammedan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. The Islamic historians and scholars have recorded with great glee and pride the slaughters of Hindus, forced conversions, abduction of Hindu women and children to slave markets and the destruction of temples carried out by the warriors of Islam during 800 AD to 1700 AD. Millions of Hindus were converted to Islam by sword during this period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus#During_Islamic_rule_of_the_Indian_sub-continent

EDIT to Add...Most panjabi people I know (both Hindu and Sikh) have no love for modern islam...You're talking bulshit...But of couse your isolated Indian "friends" give you all you need to know about India dont they?

Lets not forget that the BJP was elected into power, therefore this nationalism isnt just a Gujarati thing.

 

[hipipol]

You still have Modi
But the country has Congress
A pity really as think Vajpayee was a very good PM, but that fucking idiot LK Advani shouldn't be left in charge of wheelbarrow let alone anyone else
Funnily enough I have today spoken to a number of people all of whom refuse to blame Islam for this carnage
My bosses cousin was at a wedding party at the Taj, she got out OK. My boss is Gujerati. She is Ismaeli, so knows about persucution at the hands of Sunni/Wahabi nutters
The Chairamn of our firm, who I work with closely is from Kerala, but most of his family now live in Bandra, Juha and Mahalaxmi. He is Hindu
I have just put the phone down having talked to a Sikh friend who is working in London at the moment but whose family have an appartment on Malabar Hill, says his brother has been watching the trident Oberoi battle thru binoculars for the last couple of days. Some of their windows look out over back Bay

None of them blame Islam

I worked in Mumbai for several months every year back in the 90s and have been visitng the place since probably before you were born. I have stayed at the Taj, eaten at Leopolds and the Oberoi - though to be honest the Apollo on Apollo Bunder next to the Taj or the Seagreen on Marine Drive(now officially Subash Chandra Bose Marg - though thats odd really as he had fuck all connection with that part of India, but that Shiv Sena for you, full of crap)

The joy of Mumbai was its tolerance - before it became Maharashtra it was Bombay State - the Gujeratis rioted for weeks as they didn't want to lose it, let it have its own identity, burning and killing.
You sound bitter yet I suspect you are not very old. I suppose if what you have fed is nothing but poison, nothing but poison will spill out. Maybe one day you will see people for what they are, not simply a reflection of your well trained hate


Froggy - read this iRobot guys stuff, it'll give you an idea of what the Hindu nationalists bigotry feeds on

 

[iROBOT]

You still have Modi
But the country has Congress
A pity really as think Vajpayee was a very good PM, but that fucking idiot LK Advani shouldn't be left in charge of wheelbarrow let alone anyone else
Funnily enough I have today spoken to a number of people all of whom refuse to blame Islam for this carnage
My bosses cousin was at a wedding party at the Taj, she got out OK. My boss is Gujerati. She is Ismaeli, so knows about persucution at the hands of Sunni/Wahabi nutters
The Chairamn of our firm, who I work with closely is from Kerala, but most of his family now live in Bandra, Juha and Mahalaxmi. He is Hindu
I have just put the phone down having talked to a Sikh friend who is working in London at the moment but whose family have an appartment on Malabar Hill, says his brother has been watching the trident Oberoi battle thru binoculars for the last couple of days. Some of their windows look out over back Bay

None of them blame Islam

I worked in Mumbai for several months every year back in the 90s and have been visitng the place since probably before you were born. I have stayed at the Taj, eaten at Leopolds and the Oberoi - though to be honest the Apollo on Apollo Bunder next to the Taj or the Seagreen on Marine Drive(now officially Subash Chandra Bose Marg - though thats odd really as he had fuck all connection with that part of India, but that Shiv Sena for you, full of crap)

The joy of Mumbai was its tolerance - before it became Maharashtra it was Bombay State - the Gujeratis rioted for weeks as they didn't want to lose it, let it have its own identity, burning and killing.
You sound bitter yet I suspect you are not very old. I suppose if what you have fed is nothing but poison, nothing but poison will spill out. Maybe one day you will see people for what they are, not simply a reflection of your well trained hate


Froggy - read this iRobot guys stuff, it'll give you an idea of what the Hindu nationalists bigotry feeds on

LOL...Yeah yeah we get the picture you know ALOT of Indians therfore you are an "expert" on India.


Try living there communicating on a regular bases then you'll understand from the normal common man and not the Middle Class (wedding reception at the Taj... you know how fucking expensive is that!?!)....fuckwits you talk to.


And yes Froggie...feel free to ask me, from the source and not some liberal shitehead.

 

[hipipol]

LOL...Yeah yeah we get the picture you know ALOT of Indians therfore you are an "expert" on India.


Try living there communicating on a regular bases then you'll understand from the normal common man and not the Middle Class (wedding reception at the Taj... you know how fucking expensive is that!?!)....fuckwits you talk to.


And yes Froggie...feel free to ask me, from the source and not some liberal shitehead.

I am not an expert, nor do I claim that, what I do say is that all you post is from a bigoted and communal point of view

The "riots" in Gujerat were set up and run by the Modi based on a spurious claim that the train had been set fire to by a Muslim terrorist

The national police investigation found that not to be true
It aslo found that police and BJP men had planned attacks on Muslims
It found there had been planned mass rapes
The Commissioner sent to carry out these investigations was blocked at every turn and was finally smeared, accused of all sort of fake irregularities and his family threatened to such an extent, he resigned
Those are all known facts, you know them as well as I

You seem to think that this sort of behaiour is fair
I do not

As for the cheap attack ref the wedding at the Taj, it wasn't her wedding she was a guest - what would you do had you been invited? Say, oh no, my conscience forbids me to enter? Dont be daft
I realise you are some sort of deranged Trident weilding nut job with a passion for saffron, but there is no need to be an idiot

 

[iROBOT]

I am not an expert, nor do I claim that, what I do say is that all you post is from a bigoted and communal point of view

The "riots" in Gujerat were set up and run by the Modi based on a spurious claim that the train had been set fire to by a Muslim terrorist

The national police investigation found that not to be true
It aslo found that police and BJP men had planned attacks on Muslims
It found there had been planned mass rapes
The Commissioner sent to carry out these investigations was blocked at every turn and was finally smeared, accused of all sort of fake irregularities and his family threatened to such an extent, he resigned
Those are all known facts, you know them as well as I

You seem to think that this sort of behaiour is fair
I do not

As for the cheap attack ref the wedding at the Taj, it wasn't her wedding she was a guest - what would you do had you been invited? Say, oh no, my conscience forbids me to enter? Dont be daft
I realise you are some sort of deranged Trident weilding nut job with a passion for saffron, but there is no need to be an idiot

1/ I've never claimed that Hindus are all perfect in their behaviour towards Muslims, but after centuries of oppression from them, it's hardly surprising is it?

2/ I dont know anyone rich enough to get married at the Taj, and i tend not to frequent places or work with people that are THAT minted. Therefore I'd never be asked, and in fact I prob would say no, they should be using that money to pay more Taxs so that the poor of India can benifit from their explotation of it and them.

But you've given me a great idea, next time I want to know what's going on at grass root level in the UK I'll gate crash a Wedding reception at the Dorchester and then ask the Cheif Ex of the organisation I work for...Should be pretty definative (I'm sure you agree)...

 

[hipipol]

Once your inside the Doirchester I suggest talking to the waiters too, they may have a better idea about the lives they live, then to a number of others there. You may find a surprising mix.

 

[iROBOT]

Once your inside the Doirchester I suggest talking to the waiters too, they may have a better idea about the lives they live, then to a number of others there. You may find a surprising mix.

Yeah like your Indian "friend" talked to the Taj waiters...LOL...

I have worked at the Dorchester (as a soundman for an event there) and the waiters/waitresses/chefs** are all lovely (btw)...

**EDIT TO ADD...and they all pretty much detest the type of people that frequent the place...I refuse to work there myself anymore (not that I'm a freelancer anymore), jumped up rich shits...Lifes too fucking short yto be talked down too like that.

 

[frogwoman]

its a shame its turned into this cos this could have been an interesting thread,

just read the wikipedia thing you posted irobot, is there anything a bit more detailed/less partisan? what you guys have both posted is really interesting, thanks.

on a local level, do you get hindus and muslims living together in the same neighbourhoods,going to the same schools, etc?

 

[iROBOT]

its a shame its turned into this cos this could have been an interesting thread,
just read the wikipedia thing you posted irobot, is there anything a bit more detailed/less partisan? what you guys have both posted is really interesting, thanks.

on a local level, do you get hindus and muslims living together in the same neighbourhoods,going to the same schools, etc?

As a Hindu Nationalist () I agree...

Try this wiki again but gives you an overall perspective on this political view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_nationalist

On the local level...No Hindus and Muslims tend not to live in the same areas and Muslims have there own schools (this is outside of the Urban areas btw)

There are towns that are exclusively Hindu/Muslim too and neither one would dream of living in the others.

 

[frogwoman]

cheers

im not saying i agree with most of what you're saying, cos i don't, but i just want to understand where you and others are coming from on this ...

interesting that what that link seems to be saying is that a lot of these people regard hindus as a "nation" rather than a religion, so someone could be considered a hindu even if they were acctually sikh or something like that ...

 

[iROBOT]

cheers

im not saying i agree with most of what you're saying, cos i don't, but i just want to understand where you and others are coming from on this ...

I'm not asking for that.

Just to be able to voice an opinon (no matter how much that might wind up Urbans liberals)...

 

[nino_savatte]

I found this.

Among its many organisations is the avowedly culturalist Rashtriya Svayamsevak Sangh [Association of National Volunteers (RSS)] whose members determinedly work deep in the undergrowth of civil society. But the movement also has political organisations like the Bharatiya Janata Party [Indian People’s Party (BJP)] whose sole purpose is to capture state power, and is affiliated to the religious Vishwa Hindu Parishad [World Hindu Organisation (VHP)]. Given these different strands, its actions are bound to be octopus-like: each tentacle appears to move independently and yet all come together to push the body in the desired direction.

It might be expected that a movement with such seemingly opposed tendencies would in the long run have split, if not collapsed. This has not happened because four features cement all the various groups:

* First, abiding and pervasive anti-liberalism.

* Second, repugnance for the left or to anything that even remotely smells of it.

* Third, commitment to a distinctive and exclusivist variant of nationalism. Hindu nationalists aim to unite all those who are seen by them as part of the Hindu fold and to create (or, seen by their own lights, to reinstate) a strong, disciplined nation of such united people: the Hindu Rashtra.

* Fourth, and above all, relentless antipathy to Muslims, and to a lesser extent, to Christians and to the secular-minded who desire equal citizenship for all Indians.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/democracy/article_1566.jsp

 

[nino_savatte]

Interesting blog from Reuters
http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2008/11/03/the-dark-side-of-hindu-nationalism/

 

[frogwoman]

cheers mate, in that sense it doesn't sound much different to other forms of nationalism.

 

[hipipol]

Calm yourself matey, life is to short to have it brought to an abrubt end via exploding blood vessel in the head
The Taj is actually very much up its own arse - all the prices were in $US -I've only ever stayed there when some other bugger was paying - I did enjoy walking thru the reception wearing a Beano T shirt with the sleeves roughly ripped off, flip flops ( I dont mean of the fluffed Brazilian poser variety either) and a pair of khaki shorts - the perfectly groomed rich Mumbaikers and the reception staff looked shocked.
Just round the corner was a lovely bar called Gokhuls used to eat in there cos my meals weren't getting covered by Nomura who only paid for the room.
When I was there for any length of time I'd stay at Walleys - now turned into luxury flats, aminly cos it was a really old building, no a/c, TV or any of that so you went out and met peeps - not hard to do really, I always found Munbai a really friendly place.
Later when it got hotter and I was boiling to death in late May, early june, I'd move round to the Sea Green - only European they had and the night manager decided to teach me Marathi - we never got very far
I met guys who had come form all over India thinking the streets were paved with gold, a rich kid who went out every night giving food to street kids- that really was an eye opener - got invited to peoples houses, helped smuggle the the floor boy at the Apollo (it still had a permit room for alkies from when it had been a dry state) back into the hotel as he was so pissed he could barely stand and the manager would have gone off his head at him - its big city and parts of it are awful beyond belief, but the people are great.
I really feel for them, so many of them took care of me, and it seems their own country does very little for them.
I met so many and have so many wonderful memories that my eyes fill with tears when I see what these bastards have done

 

[nino_savatte]

cheers mate, in that sense it doesn't sound much different to other forms of nationalism.

Aye...it's the same shitty ultra-nationalism that you get anywhere.

 

[iROBOT]

cheers mate, in that sense it doesn't sound much different to other forms of nationalism.

Why should it be?

 

[iROBOT]

Calm yourself matey, life is to short to have it brought to an abrubt end via exploding blood vessel in the head
The Taj is actually very much up its own arse - all the prices were in $US -I've only ever stayed there when some other bugger was paying - I did enjoy walking thru the reception wearing a Beano T shirt with the sleeves roughly ripped off, flip flops ( I dont mean of the fluffed Brazilian poser variety either) and a pair of khaki shorts - the perfectly groomed rich Mumbaikers and the reception staff looked shocked.
Just round the corner was a lovely bar called Gokhuls used to eat in there cos my meals weren't getting covered by Nomura who only paid for the room.
When I was there for any length of time I'd stay at Walleys - now turned into luxury flats, aminly cos it was a really old building, no a/c, TV or any of that so you went out and met peeps - not hard to do really, I always found Munbai a really friendly place.
Later when it got hotter and I was boiling to death in late May, early june, I'd move round to the Sea Green - only European they had and the night manager decided to teach me Marathi - we never got very far
I met guys who had come form all over India thinking the streets were paved with gold, a rich kid who went out every night giving food to street kids- that really was an eye opener - got invited to peoples houses, helped smuggle the the floor boy at the Apollo (it still had a permit room for alkies from when it had been a dry state) back into the hotel as he was so pissed he could barely stand and the manager would have gone off his head at him - its big city and parts of it are awful beyond belief, but the people are great.
I really feel for them, so many of them took care of me, and it seems their own country does very little for them.
I met so many and have so many wonderful memories that my eyes fill with tears when I see what these bastards have done

Well i salute you for engaging with the locals.

But (trust me) India will survive and will be a force (again) in the world, no matter what the Muslims do.

 

[Jonti]

I thought plenty of Indians were Muslim -- like about 60 million.

Perhaps not one of those sixty million people is really a citizen in your eyes.

Or perhaps you don't recognise people of other sky-pixie faiths than your own as fully human?

 

[Jonti]

Why should it be?

Heh!

Stupid boy!

 

[hipipol]

I thought plenty of Indians were Muslim -- like about 60 million.

Perhaps not one of those sixty million people is really a citizen in your eyes.

Or perhaps you don't recognise people of other sky-pixie faiths than your own as fully human?

its 150 million, making India have the largest Muslim population of any country in the world

Its is worth realisng that many of these keen as mustard saffron clad RSS wallahs will be aware that the majority of converts to Islam in India were from lower castes or were entirely without caste at all - meaning they were the original inhabitants when the Aryans frist arrived, who were excluded and downtrodden by their new masters. There you go, it keeps fucking repeating itself

Edited to ask: How do you feel about Caste then iRobot?

 

[iROBOT]

we're not talking about caste you cunt.

Start a thread and I might post on it.

And Indonesia has the largest Muslim population, not India.

 

[iROBOT]

And 150 million Muslims makes up 14 percent of the Indian population, the same as Immigrants to this country,.

 

[iROBOT]

I thought plenty of Indians were Muslim -- like about 60 million.

Perhaps not one of those sixty million people is really a citizen in your eyes.

Or perhaps you don't recognise people of other sky-pixie faiths than your own as fully human?

I recognize all faiths and beliefs, its when they dont recognize mine and kill my people I start having problems.