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Hillsborough: What Really Happened?

Sadken said:
I'm truly not sure what it is. I watched it happen and I go to football all the time myself...that's all I can think of really but, yeah, the stories of how they helped and the way that was misrepresented really burns me up as if I was a Scouser myself.
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I can't say I am relating to it like that and I am seriously trying hard to think of what it is I see that upsets me so. I think it's the thought of all those humans crushed in a cage and being watched dying by clueless sneering authority with it's arms crossed. And also being squahed and dying and not being able to do anything about it at all to save yourself
 
JTG said:
Just been reading the recollections of an Everton fan who was at the other semi at Villa Park that day - the way they had no idea what had happened, other than that the game had been abandoned, until news filtered through as they came away from the match. Many Everton fans had friends or relatives at Hillsborough and had an agonising trip home to find out if they were alright - this one guy remembers an Evertonian on his coach in Birmingham listening to the radio and shouting "my son's there, my son's there".
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Oh indeed. I mean my memory of the day is being at a game in Shrewsbury and then listening to the radio on the coach home and the death toll going up and up. Now bearing in mind that the game at Hillsborough was stopped at what, 3.06 pm I think, and I must have listened to the radio at half-time, I must have known then that the game had been stopped but I can't remember knowing that there were any casualties until after the Gay Meadow game was over. Yet there were people dead all over the pitch.
 
JTG said:
Just been reading the recollections of an Everton fan who was at the other semi at Villa Park that day - the way they had no idea what had happened, other than that the game had been abandoned, until news filtered through as they came away from the match. Many Everton fans had friends or relatives at Hillsborough and had an agonising trip home to find out if they were alright - this one guy remembers an Evertonian on his coach in Birmingham listening to the radio and shouting "my son's there, my son's there".
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I was at the other semi, with a mate who's brother was at Hillsborough. Like many games back then there was always someone with a wee radio giving out mumbled info due to the noise in the ground muffling the volume. Where we were at VP there was 'posh seats', indoors behind us, and people were shouting up for news.... An eerie feeling once it was pretty much known it wasn't 'hooliganism'. I remember leaving my mate at Birmingham New Street-I lived in Coventry-so he could travel north to Cheshire hoping to know his brother was ok. As jittug says, it was the era of no mobiles, my mate found out not long after I left him that his brother was ok, cos for once his idiot brother phoned his ma to let them know he was ok. I 'nurse' a deep hatred of Liverpool FC as a club, they're the local rivals after all, but not of the fans, as daft as their support for their team is, they are, mainly like me, ordinary working class men and women who for years, like me, got treated like shite at football, herded like animals, looked down upon as scum and undesirable.... Well.... if anyone didn't believe us the actions of the police and authorities on that day and in the aftermath made it clear we were right. Even when it was clear that drunken fans were not the cause it didn't stop some. Minutes after the release of the Taylor Report former Tory MP-and all round right-wing nutjob John Carlisle claimed the report was, as 'he feared', proof that drunken fans were to blame. The fact that the report didn't say that and he was rebuked by no-one but the families and ordinary fans made it clear how they view us whether at work or even when we're spending money to help their economy. 96 people died as a direct consequence of them treating us like shite and getting away with it for years.... And, as we know all too well in regards to those 96 dead mothers, fathers, brotherss, sisters, uncles, aunties and friends, they're still getting away with it, getting away with murder. Fucking utter cunts.....

Funny..... 2 years later, in 1991, I got done £250 for fighting at the football, even though not guilty, and no-one hurt, yet people died and no-one guilty or responsible.
No-one hurt, 5 tried and found guiklty
96 people killed, no-one tried, held responsibl;e or even apologised with any dignity, let alone found responsible or persigh the thought found guilty.
 
I've been choked all day today. I think it's the fact that I support LFC and could have been there. If circumstances had turned out differently my Dad could've been there too. We'd almost certainly have been in the Leppings Lane end.

The cover-up afterwards was and continues to be utterly shameful. Trevor Hicks has just said at the memorial service that there's an unconfirmed report of the South Yorkshire Police taking some responsibility. Anyone heard anything on this?
 
butchersapron said:
It's clear derf has no respect or idea at all really, so can we all just ignore him? Don't give him what he wants.

edit: seems everyone already is reading the last few posts
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That's because you are failing to read my posts but putting your own version into your tiny and rather closed mind.

If you don't like evidence then hard luck. You are clearly one of those people who make up their minds without exploring all angles just because some things don't suit your narrow minded stupidity.

I may have strong views on some subjects but i try to see all sides and assess their validity without just assuming they are lies because it doesn't suit me at the time.


Here's a challenge for you.

The post where I posted that link remains for you to see and read again if you are not too stupid to do so.
Please explain why it takes anything away from those who died or fuck off.

I've laid down that challenge to others who have failed to come up with any post I've made showing disrespect to the dead.

How about you, can you manage or are you just spouting bollocks again?
 
derf said:
That's because you are failing to read my posts but putting your own version into your tiny and rather closed mind.

If you don't like evidence then hard luck. You are clearly one of those people who make up their minds without exploring all angles just because some things don't suit your narrow minded stupidity.

I may have strong views on some subjects but i try to see all sides and assess their validity without just assuming they are lies because it doesn't suit me at the time.


Here's a challenge for you.

The post where I posted that link remains for you to see and read again if you are not too stupid to do so.
Please explain why it takes anything away from those who died or fuck off.

I've laid down that challenge to others who have failed to come up with any post I've made showing disrespect to the dead.

How about you, can you manage or are you just spouting bollocks again?
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If you want a theoretical exercise in logic and argument please pick another thread to do it in.
 
Up to 30,000 attended the memorial today at Anfield

Hillsborough anniversary: Culture Secretary booed by crowd
Sections of the crowd chanted and booed when he mentioned the Government's response to the tragedy.
Many in Merseyside are still angry that no one has been held responsible for the deaths of 96 Liverpool supporters died in the crush at Sheffield Wednesday's Hillsborough Stadium on April 15, 1989.
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Telegraph report
 
Just been watching the service, huge crowd, think they were still coming in several minutes in. All four sides of Anfield occupied.

I think it gets me for a few reasons. I was young, remembered Bradford and Heysel but didn't truly take them in. I was a starry eyed Everton fan looking forward to the Villa Park semi final and hopefully a Wembley win and then this happened and it amounted to a loss of innocence for me. It gets me because I'm a football fan and I know what all those people were expecting, feeling and hoping on that afternoon - you don't expect to die at the football.

Then there's the cover up and the lies, the idea implicit in all of it that because it involved football fans, and Scouse football fans at that, they must have been responsible for it. I know how the police see football fans, I've been going to games all my life.

Maybe Hillsborough is at the root of why I get so anal about safety as a TU rep and working at festivals in the summer.
 
JTG said:
Just been watching the service, huge crowd, think they were still coming in several minutes in. All four sides of Anfield occupied.

I think it gets me for a few reasons. I was young, remembered Bradford and Heysel but didn't truly take them in. I was a starry eyed Everton fan looking forward to the Villa Park semi final and hopefully a Wembley win and then this happened and it amounted to a loss of innocence for me. It gets me because I'm a football fan and I know what all those people were expecting, feeling and hoping on that afternoon - you don't expect to die at the football.

Then there's the cover up and the lies, the idea implicit in all of it that because it involved football fans, and Scouse football fans at that, they must have been responsible for it. I know how the police see football fans, I've been going to games all my life.
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Thanks for that, JTG.

You've just managed to put my own fairly incoherent feelings on this into words.
 
I wrote this on another forum earlier today:

"Why does Hillsborough get remembered in this way, when other disasters generally don’t? Well possibly because in those other disasters there was not a concerted and continuing attempt to smear the people who died as not only the authors of their own misfortune, but as thieving, drunken hooligans. Not the victims of King’s Cross, not the victims of Piper Alpha. Not even, as it happens, the victims of Valley Parade or other football stadium disasters (Ibrox, the recent Ivory Coast diaster, and so on). Any number of nightclub fires, where, almost inevitably, doors turn out to have been locked and chained: similarly fires in hostels. Not far from where I live, the Biescas disaster some years ago. The deaths of the Chinese cockle pickers off the Lancashire coast not long ago. So many African would-be immigrants, drowned trying to reach Italy or Spain. Many dreadful incidents of many different types.

Everybody understands, however difficult it may be to accept it, that sometimes there are disasters and large numbers of people die, in anguished and anguishing circumstances. Very often the authorities are culpable to some degree or another and people’s distress at the deaths is likely to be exacerbated by the failure to prosecute those responsible and quite often to cover up for them. (This is true of nearly all the specific instances I mention above.) This happened with Hillsborough in a very big way, but as I say, in itself that’s not so unusual. But the smear campaign against the dead, the deliberate unleashing of prejudice and dissemination of lies, the mobilisation of all sorts of prejudice against the victims – I can recall nothing that’s been even close to this. Nothing. A huge mountain of lies, insinuations and sheer outright prejudiced hatred, which is still being added to.

If this weren’t the case, It’s quite likely that the grieving and the marking of anniversaries would not have quite the same prominence as it has. It would still be large and significant, because we mark in particular those tragedies which seem to touch us, and this one touched two large and particular groups: people who are from Liverpool and people who are football supporters. If I were not in the latter group in might well not have the same impact on me, but as it happens, I am, and as it happens I was at a football match that day in Shrewsbury and I can still recall listening to the radio on the way home and the death toll going up and up. It doesn’t affect me more because I thought the people who died were any more human or important than the people who died on Piper Alpha or the people who were killed in the July bombings in London (as it happens, of those two events I’m more affected by the latter, as I was travelling to work in London that day). It’s just that they were closer to me. And there’s an awful lot of people in the same situation.

But mostly, you know, it was the lies, and the acceptability of the lies, the way it’s considered all right to repeat these lies and the way it’s considered acceptable to attack people for grieving. That’s what gives this one event its particular magnitude. That’s why if you talk to many people from Liverpool, or many people who were involved in football supporters’ organisations at the time, you’ll notice how angry they still are. Because from too many people, there was no respect for them and no respect for the dead."
 
And this:

"Incidentally, largely – though not not entirely – as a result of the mound of lies,a large proportion of people don’t really understand either how or why people died at Hillsborough. I know this from any number of conversations I’ve had in the past two decades. This is perhaps another reason why people like myself feel it necessary to keep talking about it.

People did not die because a running mob barged recklessly into the back of them. They did not die because drunken people trampled them. They did not die because they turned up late and drunk to a match and then forced their way in. I’ve come across so many people, including well-disposed people who are not inclined to believe the Sun, who think some or all of these things.

People died at Hillsborough because they were sent into a small, confined and grotesquely over-occupied space and when they were there they could not get out. And because nobody did anything about it until it was too late for 96 of them.

It shouldn’t be so hard for people to understand or accept it, but because of the sort of people who died and because of what was (and is) said about them, they still do not."
 
JTG said:
Just been watching the service, huge crowd, think they were still coming in several minutes in. All four sides of Anfield occupied.

I think it gets me for a few reasons. I was young, remembered Bradford and Heysel but didn't truly take them in. I was a starry eyed Everton fan looking forward to the Villa Park semi final and hopefully a Wembley win and then this happened and it amounted to a loss of innocence for me. It gets me because I'm a football fan and I know what all those people were expecting, feeling and hoping on that afternoon - you don't expect to die at the football.

Then there's the cover up and the lies, the idea implicit in all of it that because it involved football fans, and Scouse football fans at that, they must have been responsible for it. I know how the police see football fans, I've been going to games all my life.

Maybe Hillsborough is at the root of why I get so anal about safety as a TU rep and working at festivals in the summer.
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Just back from Sheffield Wed ground and the service there, 20 years on i walked down onto the cop holding hands of those there, ive never had the bollocks to go down, today i did and simply just sat there tears of love and rage flowing.

Moveing is a word i do not use often, today was just that walking there i was crying and inside the tears are still there i shall never forget:

Hillsborough 20 years on and still no justice for the 96 that were killed that day and senior South Yorkshire police officers still got their pensions........disgraceful!
 
derf said:
That's because you are failing to read my posts but putting your own version into your tiny and rather closed mind.

If you don't like evidence then hard luck. You are clearly one of those people who make up their minds without exploring all angles just because some things don't suit your narrow minded stupidity.

I may have strong views on some subjects but i try to see all sides and assess their validity without just assuming they are lies because it doesn't suit me at the time.


Here's a challenge for you.

The post where I posted that link remains for you to see and read again if you are not too stupid to do so.
Please explain why it takes anything away from those who died or fuck off.

I've laid down that challenge to others who have failed to come up with any post I've made showing disrespect to the dead.

How about you, can you manage or are you just spouting bollocks again?
Click to expand...

You're bringing up unpleasant smears that were dealt with nearly 20 years ago. Why should anyone go into that stuff to suit you?
 
To be fair, the crowd only got going when he said he was representing the PM. He was applauded for his points about the unity of the city and its football fans
 
I was a teenager when this happened living in a town just outside of Sheffield, a few school friend’s older Brothers were at the match – wasn’t into Football at the time so didn’t mean much to me back then – but reading some of the articles that various people have kindly posted just brings home what a grave day this was and what terrible injustice has been done to all the victims, their families and the survivors who continue to live with these events to this day.

How can people talk about the alleged state of the fans, or even hint at the reason why fences were in the stadiums as if this has anything to do with the events that occurred. The Police were in charge of safety at the event – the exact same teams, met for the exact same fixture at the exact same stadium the previous season – they knew or should have known the measures required to ensure safety at the ground – the parameters were all known – sadly they were inadequately prepared, state of the fans is totally irrelevant.

Show some respect.
 
JTG said:
To be fair, the crowd only got going when he said he was representing the PM. He was applauded for his points about the unity of the city and its football fans
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But that's pretty meaningless. I hate Liverpool FC and all her works but I stand with the fans on this - no-one deserves to be treated like they have been. His presence there was an insult.
 
JTG said:
To be fair, the crowd only got going when he said he was representing the PM. He was applauded for his points about the unity of the city and its football fans
Click to expand...


When those fans started singing JUSTICE FOR THE 96 I smiled and felt glad. Oh fuck aye mate, made me smile a big grin when they did that, and it's not often i'm happy to hear the Kop sing. Those on here whoe know me as a sarcy sick sense of humoured git, but watching the news with a cuppa tea had me weeping.... But it ain't enough, the cowardice seen from governments, police, judiciary and media..... These bastards killed people.... By their arrogance and attitude they snuffed out young and old men and women and they covered it up and they're still covering it up...... May they go to their fucking graves with the pain and anguish they caused those dead human beings and their families seared into their fucking minds.

Or maybe, just one of the wankers high up in South Yorkshire Police, will have the guts or a shred of humanity top say they got it wrong and that they were responsible. Maybe then just maybe, Liverpool fans, Evertonians, football fans worldwide will feel that someone has finally taken responsibility.
 
bluestreak said:
But that's pretty meaningless. I hate Liverpool FC and all her works but I stand with the fans on this - no-one deserves to be treated like they have been. His presence there was an insult.
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not disagreeing, just saying that the reaction to him was slightly more textured than some reports would make out
 
Fedayn said:
When those fans started singing JUSTICE FOR THE 96 I smiled and felt glad. Oh fuck aye mate, made me smile a big grin when they did that,
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Me too. A point well made.The fact that his other more reasonable points were applauded only gave it more resonance - the response was perfect, imo.
 
JTG said:
To be fair, the crowd only got going when he said he was representing the PM. He was applauded for his points about the unity of the city and its football fans
Click to expand...
My brother was at the service and he said you could see everyone wince as soon as he said that,it was obvious what kind of response he was going to get. Call me perverse but i was really, really proud that he got silenced by 28,000 people chanting 'justice for the 96'. One of the many worthless promises Labour made in 1997 was that if they got elected they'd re-open the inquest. They've done fuck all of any substance to bring those responsible for Hillsborough to account, but they're quite happy to seize any photo opportunity related to it. Just been down to Anfield and, among all the tributes, someone's tied a Liverpool shirt to the railings with 'DUCKINFIELD ROT IN HELL - MCKENZIE I HOPE YOU BURN TO DEATH' on it. It may not be entirely appropriate, that may not be the place for it, but you can't blame people for being so bitter and angry.

I posted earlier in the thread saying that the tone of the media coverage has been different this year, and that's definitely continued with the news coverage today. On the tenth anniversary the general consensus was one of sympathy but, you know, it's been 10 years and there's been an inquest and the Taylor report, let's all move on. The presenter on the ITV news tonight cut to one of the reports on the memorial with 'Justice may never have been done, but they will never be forgotten'. The families and survivors may never have got 'official' justice, in terms of those responsible being brought to account, but it's testament to how hard they've fought for the truth that the mainstream media are now reporting what really happened, and are acknowledging that they've been treated appallingly.
 
rosa said:
Call me perverse but i was really, really proud that he got silenced by 28,000 people chanting 'justice for the 96'.
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Me too. Todays memorial was very moving, more so than I thought it would be, my eyes swelled up when YNWA was sang at the end (I wasnt even at Anflield, was watching it in work).

The city centre was at a complete standstill from 2:45 till 4:30pm today.

Justice for the 96, You'll Never Walk Alone.
 
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