Hating the police

[stuff_it]

Sorry, but it seems I've been a bit luckier than you were. I had victim support contact me by 'phone yesterday to ask if I needed anything, and they promised to send me a panic alarm in case the same thing happens again (I was assaulted in my own home). I was examined properly both by a nurse (who managed to get all the glass out of my eyebrow) and by a doctor at a bigger hospital, who checked to see if I had any facial bones broken (Fortunately I haven't).

And does a hard punch to the face (or blow with an object, I couldn't see which), which broke one of the lenses of my glasses and gave me a black eye and some cuts to my eyebrow, count as "serious assault?" I think so. If I hadn't had the foresight to order spectacles with shatter-proof glass I could easily have suffered serious eye damage.

I hope whoever did it to you got the punishment they deserved.

I'd have thought being beaten and gang raped would have counted as a serious assault too, they promised referrals to counselling and support but it never materialised, my GP refused to refer me as he reckoned the police were supposed to do it...

 

[Meltingpot]

I'd have thought being beaten and gang raped would have counted as a serious assault too, they promised referrals to counselling and support but it never materialised, my GP refused to refer me as he reckoned the police were supposed to do it...

Hell yeah. Did the cunts go down for it?

You definitely should have had counselling and support for that. Is there a rape crisis centre where you live?

 

[stuff_it]

Hell yeah. Did the cunts go down for it?

You definitely should have had counselling and support for that. Is there a rape crisis centre where you live?

It was years ago, I'm over it pretty much but no I found it very difficult to get help at the time nor did they catch anyone. Got drugged and attacked in a night club in London, innit.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Classic example of the police acting like cunts; yesterday they kicked in over 100 doors in London, looking for 'rioters'. Whatever you may think of those who took to the streets in August, the timing of these raids was no coincidence. They were timed so that those that the police suspected of having some kind of involvement would be removed from their families over Christmas. The idea being, nick 'em on Wednesday, hold them until Friday when you drag them in to court and strongly appose any bail application.

Given that a % of those nicked will eventually get a not guilty, it's deliberately cuntish to go out of your way to get them banged up over Christmas. Whilst their collective attitude runs along those lines, they will always be cunts.

 

[frogwoman]

"Things are more shit in other countries, therefore, its OK for them to be shit in Britain" is a crap argument.

not to mention that people in other countries which are more "shit" than here use that argument too - moldovans saying they're "lucky" not to be living in africa or china.

 

[purves grundy]

Thread needs a tune

 

[Streathamite]

I was simply pointing out that this debate seemed (on the first page particularly, from what I saw) largely framed around the role the police play in public order, and that they actually have a far wider remit than that. A remit which needs to be fulfilled, even if I concede that the service they provide falls far short of adequate for most people at the moment.

it's inadequate for exactly the same reasons that they are cunts in other areas; they aren't interested in protecting or serving the genuine needs of working class communities, merely in controlling them onj behalf of their political overlords. I live in east london, and when i got burgled they were worse than useless; I might as well have not bothered reporting it, plus their attitude stank.
Stopping kids on the streets, in their cars, endlessly harassing people...different story. The two issues are directly linked.

 

[ayatollah]

I never said it was enough, and I'm not here to stick up for the police.

I was simply pointing out that this debate seemed (on the first page particularly, from what I saw) largely framed around the role the police play in public order, and that they actually have a far wider remit than that. A remit which needs to be fulfilled, even if I concede that the service they provide falls far short of adequate for most people at the moment.

The police do, or should, have a much wider remit than public order. But has been pointed out elsewhere on this thread, the poorer the community you live in , the poorer in quality is the police response to crimes against that community by both internal and external criminals. Basically the police will turn out rapido if its a middle class person reporting a burglary in a "nice" area, but usually just don't give a shit if its a crime (particularly a "hate crime " of bullying and intimidation) in a large, poor, housing estate. We also need to remember that the Police , in the UK as much as elsewhere, have always been incredibly CORRUPT , so whether its drug rings or protection rackets or prostitution /people trafficing, (or phone hacking) the police usually leave the Big gangsters well alone for decades - even though most of em are well known in their fiefdoms.

So it is tempting to want a policeman on every street corner when the social fabric is falling apart and gangs are roaming around looting, but that doesn't alter the fact that NO bankers/hedge fund managers have been arrested for essentially stealing BILLIONS during the dodgy junk loans scandal which destroyed the banking system in 2008, and in a capitalist society generally behind most great fortunes is a great crime. Until the police start rounding up the bankers and capitalists I'll continue to view them simply as "bodies of armed men" of the bosses - who sometimes also get involved in protecting some other members of the public some of the time, when they aren't too busy taking bribes or protecting BIG Capital.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

it's posturing bollocks but there is a serious point. the police exist largely not to defend the people but to defend the interests of the state and capital, they do this through the use of force.. .......

i don't think the police are all cunts and would always argue against this but i don't think we can ignore the functions they perform in society and what they are allowed and encouraged to get away with on an individual level as well as the fact that some groups of people are criminalised far more than others. and their ultimate role which is often not really about protecting people from crime at all.

This post and the whole thread has given me lots to think about and has been very enlightening. I suppose I've never really given the matter much thought before. Thank you.

 

[phildwyer]

In some good news, Mexico has sacked 10% of its policeforce over corruption. One state sacked the entire force!

The Tijuana Police Department had all their guns confiscated, and were issued with sling-shots instead. This is true.

 

[phildwyer]

"You should consider yourself lucky people have it much worse in other countries" is a weak argument phildwyer.

It's not an argument at all. It is a statement of fact.

 

[Streathamite]

How can you make them accountable when the legal system is geared up to protect them? Of course they should be held accountable, they should be held to a HIGHER accountability than the rest of the public, as they are supposed to represent the laws they so frequently flaunt.

It's 'flout' xes, not flaunt. That's something rather different!

 

[phildwyer]

Phil

I think what you're trying to say here is that when the uk police want to kill someone they usually have the good manners to do it behind closed doors. A better comparison between the british and brazilian police would have been of the police laughing round the ex-para they killed. No one except you thinks the two examples you contrast are equivalent

I've seen YouTube videos of you (I presume) and your mates on "Bash the Rich" marches, yelling "scum, scum, scum" at a line of coppers.

If you did that here in Turkey, or in Mexico, Brazil etc, you would immediately be beaten to death.

So I think you must acknowledge that the British police are about as restrained as it is possible for a police force in a capitalist society to be.

This should lead you to conclude that the police are not the real problem, and this in turn should lead you to direct your antipathy and activism elsewhere.

 

[Pickman's model]

I've seen YouTube videos of you (I presume) and your mates on "Bash the Rich" marches, yelling "scum, scum, scum" at a line of coppers.

If you did that here in Turkey, or in Mexico, Brazil etc, you would immediately be beaten to death.

So I think you must acknowledge that the British police are about as restrained as it is possible for a police force in a capitalist society to be.

This should lead you to conclude that the police are not the real problem, and this in turn should lead you to direct your antipathy and activism elsewhere.

If you're right the british police are the best it's possible to be in a capitalist society that's another cogent reason to get shot of the fuckers

 

[Pickman's model]

It's not an argument at all. It is a statement of fact.

A 'should' statement can never be a fact. You should be grateful to me for pointing that out

 

[Streathamite]

"Things are more shit in other countries, therefore, its OK for them to be shit in Britain" is a crap argument.

totally

 

[The39thStep]

This post and the whole thread has given me lots to think about and has been very enlightening. I suppose I've never really given the matter much thought before. Thank you.

post of the year

 

[ViolentPanda]

Been on a couple of demos, have we? Did the bad policemen make you stand in one place for a long time and not let you go pee pee? Aww..

Now you've just shown yourself up as an idiot.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why are they doing the admin, though? Its in order to prosecute people, normally.

Nope.
It's for Home Office record-keeping. All that gets sent up the prosecution chain are the investigative data (statements, findings etc). Everything else is bean-counting crap to enable datasets to be compiled, "efficiency" to be measured, etc.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Now you've just shown yourself up as an idiot.

Responding to pickmans patronising sarcasm with a little of my own shows me to be an idiot?

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Nope.
It's for Home Office record-keeping. All that gets sent up the prosecution chain are the investigative data (statements, findings etc). Everything else is bean-counting crap to enable datasets to be compiled, "efficiency" to be measured, etc.

problem for all public services, but I doubt all admin is for stats.

 

[ViolentPanda]

problem for all public services, but I doubt all admin is for stats.

A lot of it feeds in, though, even the data from individual cases. All so that government can "justify" the expense of the service to the taxpayer.

And while managerialist culture is a problem for all public services, in most of them, even healthcare, there isn't as much legislative activity fueled by the data sent up the chain. "Law and Order" has been uniquely emphasised by post-Thatcher administrations as being the guage by which the public supposedly measure the performance of government (the question of establishment-fueled moral panics creating anxiety within the public notwithstanding). So, we have government legislative priorities fuelling a thirst for data which then has to be gathered, which fuels legislative action, which in turn creates new data to be collected...
It's not self-perpetuating, but the Home Office's requirements make it unique in its' intensity and depth.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Responding to pickmans patronising sarcasm with a little of my own shows me to be an idiot?

You didn't indulge in sarcasm, patronising or otherwise.

 

[1%er]

what i mean is that the answer is not to get rid of the concept of the police. to be honest i think the idea of a society where the police, or something like it, will never be necessary at all is utopian bollocks.

So what you really mean is, if I'm reading your reply correctly is this.

You believe that the police are used as a tool of the government to "defend the interests of the state and capital, they do this through the use of force", and you oppose this, but you believe there is a need for some from of community protection?

The 2nd point you make I'm not sure is being made by anyone, I haven't seen anyone up to this point in the thread saying "there is no need for some from of community protection". (I'm on page 3 of the thread)

My first post on this thread was trying to make that point "There are 10's of thousands of towns and villages around the world where people never see the police" but that doesn't mean these communities don't protect themselves.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It's not an argument at all. It is a statement of fact.

May be a fact, but you were using it to augment your point that we should be grateful that our police are not as bad as some. Take that line of thinking and everyone who is not in North Korea should be happy with their police, because none are as bad as there. Clearly that is a warped way to look at the world.

 

[Streathamite]

I've seen YouTube videos of you (I presume) and your mates on "Bash the Rich" marches, yelling "scum, scum, scum" at a line of coppers.

If you did that here in Turkey, or in Mexico, Brazil etc, you would immediately be beaten to death.

So I think you must acknowledge that the British police are about as restrained as it is possible for a police force in a capitalist society to be.

This should lead you to conclude that the police are not the real problem, and this in turn should lead you to direct your antipathy and activism elsewhere.

what an embarrassingly shit line of logic. The fact police in some other countries are even more of a bunch of utter cunts than ours shouldn't make us grateful at all, it should make us even keener to restrain ours AND theirs further.
Fuck academic standards have gone to pot

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Oooohhhhh!!!!! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16299750

Two police officers have been sacked for beating up three men after a car chase in north London.

In July 2009 the officers were among a group of six who chased a Citroen Saxo into the Grange Estate, East Finchley.
The men, one aged 18 and two aged 31, alleged excessive force was used by the officers.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) investigated and two officers, aged 37 and 40, have been dismissed from the force. Two officers have been given a final written warning and two are awaiting misconduct hearings.

Two of the victims were aged 31 and the other 18. One was left with a suspected broken nose and the others sustained minor injuries.

Ahhhhhh.....

The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) decided not to press charges

 

[xes]

It's 'flout' xes, not flaunt. That's something rather different!

I was close, but my point still stands.

 

[1%er]

I'm not sure that arguing that one countries police are better or worse than another has much point. Many of the differences will be cultural and the level of accountability for police is very different.

It is comparing apples and oranges and as such has little value.

 

[xes]

Oooohhhhh!!!!! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16299750

Ahhhhhh.....

what, more filthy cunt pigs getting away with beating people up?? Say it isn't true, me dreams are shattered