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Greenpeace take over a coal train in Nottinghamshire

Fair point, once you allow for the extra energy used in getting hold of it in the first place, gas probably isn't getting that much more efficient. But the other huge reason for using gas as the bridging tech is that nuclear and renewables are not very compatible whereas gas and renewables are. In order to get anything like a reasonable level of efficiency both nuclear and renewables have to produce base-load - ie the always-demanded level of power. I know that renewables aren't great at this but they can't do switch-on, switch-off at all* - neither can nuclear.

Gas can, in fact it's pretty good at it, basically it's just like turning on a giant grill with a giant match, so it's great for demand surges at peak points - advert-break kettle on big football match - that kind of stuff.

So apart from soaking up vast quantities of capital which would otherwise be used on alternatives, nuclear is also incompatible with renewable alternatives. The whole things a disaster really, especially since we're building the most useless design...


*apart from hydro-electric which I believe has the fastest on-time of any method, beats gas. But that's not going to be a huge element of the UK's mix.

I seem to remember reading sonewere that apparently the Dinwinoc pumped storage system in Snowden North Wales can go from Zero to full load in about 90 seconds
 
Just been checking - the 16 seconds is for a turbine already spinning in air, it takes about 60 to 75 to get it up to speed and generating from a standstill.

So, watching for the start of the closing credits (or a supply failure elsewhere) is a major part of grid / demand management.

In contrast, a coal-fired station has to have water already boiling to have anything like a quick response, which is why coal and nuclear plants do "base load" leaving gas and hydro to pick up when demand peaks suddenly. Wind is useful, but a lot less amenable to any sort of planning ......
 
I seem to remember reading sonewere that apparently the Dinwinoc pumped storage system in Snowden North Wales can go from Zero to full load in about 90 seconds


Yes I always remember hydro as an afterthought amongst renewables, I've never lived somewhere where there is any so I kind of forget it. But it's pretty good energy-wise if you've got the right sort of river and your dam isn't going to silt up and/or cause eathquakes *ahem the three gorges dam ahem*
 
christ and here was I thinking there was just some minor industry palm-greasing afoot

I know, it's a complete shambles. Nuclear almost certainly isn't the answer but if you must have it no way should anyone be commissioning an EPR now. The one consolation is that it'll stop the "nuclear renaissance" in its tracks, just like the last one and the one before that. The shame is that we'll have wasted so much time and money in the meanwhile. The subsidies to EDF alone will be worth billions but there'll also be the standard construction industry malarkey you are talking about - I mean on a budget of £3-4 billion anyone involved above middling level is going to be able to find a way to coin it.
 
I suppose they'll get G4S to run the fucking thing as well. Cue a litany of Homer Simpson-esque comedy mishaps and the resultant irradiation of most of the South West.
 
I suppose they'll get G4S to run the fucking thing as well. Cue a litany of Homer Simpson-esque comedy mishaps and the resultant irradiation of most of the South West.

Prevailing wind would make any pollution plume cover Bristol pretty likely. Years ago in the 80s I was living in Bristol, I was ok at fly-posting, I used to do loads of SHE's* A4s and A3s all over the place, we really covered the city centre a couple of times.


*Stop Hinckley Expansion
 
Not if you're interested in reducing carbon emissions to the kind of level that we need to head off climate change. Nuclear can be described as "low-carbon" but it's no where near being "renewable". Highly efficient gas turbines can be called low-carbon - in fact if you include the carbon costs of decommissioning there's a case for suggesting that gas may already be lower in terms of carbon than nuclear (and gas is getting more and more efficient). Gas would make a far more flexible and efficient bridging technology to a carbon-free future than nuclear.

If nuclear is low-carbon then surely it's a relevant option as far as climate change is concerned?

The theoretical reserves are huge, the actual extractable reserves are much smaller. Mining and milling currently account for about 35-40% of the carbon costs of nuclear, as we move to the thinner ores that cost rises steeply; this is one of the uncertainties of carbon-costing nuclear. At the moment it can be considered viable to mine ores as thin as 0.02% uranium - ie 200 grams per ton, that's a lot of digging and crushing. If you get down to even lower levels you end up spending more energy on extraction than you produce at the other end, and obviously the carbon costs go through the roof. There is a gamble here about how many other countries are going to go nuclear - if loads do, then we reach non-viability sooner, possibly within the lifetime of the plants (which would really make them a bad investment). If only a few do then the easy uranium lasts a good long while. It was partly this equation that suddenly made a few govts think 'let's pile in early' a few years ago. The UK was one of these but we're moving so slowly that it's arguable we've missed the moment.

If an increasing proportion of power is being provided by a combination of nuclear and renewables, then the additional carbon produced by the mining of minerals with more marginal fissionable content will be offset by the fact that fossil fuels are falling out of favour as a method of primary energy generation.

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source

Looking at this chart, it seems like significant reductions in carbon emissions could be made if none of the power stations that supplied those sectors burned fossil fuels.

Fair point, once you allow for the extra energy used in getting hold of it in the first place, gas probably isn't getting that much more efficient. But the other huge reason for using gas as the bridging tech is that nuclear and renewables are not very compatible whereas gas and renewables are. In order to get anything like a reasonable level of efficiency both nuclear and renewables have to produce base-load - ie the always-demanded level of power. I know that renewables aren't great at this but they can't do switch-on, switch-off at all* - neither can nuclear.

Not entirely true. Retracting the fuel rods will certainly decrease energy output, the rate of decrease being limited by the cooling rate of the heat transfer media (which would be an engineering problem, not a physical one). This would be more controllable and predictable than the vagaries of the weather which an all-renewable grid would be vulnerable to, and would avoid the carbon emissions associated with a hybrid gas-renewable grid.

Gas can, in fact it's pretty good at it, basically it's just like turning on a giant grill with a giant match, so it's great for demand surges at peak points - advert-break kettle on big football match - that kind of stuff.

Even the cleanest gas will still produce net additions to atmospheric carbon as an integral part of its operation. You can't avoid that. Unless of course you're burning biogas. I think biogas also has it's place, although I'm not sure how much of it we could produce.

So apart from soaking up vast quantities of capital which would otherwise be used on alternatives, nuclear is also incompatible with renewable alternatives.

Nonsense. Research into physics gets a lot of money, but that doesn't mean we have no cash left over for biological research. Same thing with nuclear and renewables.

The whole things a disaster really, especially since we're building the most useless design...

Who's building what design?
 
Just been checking - the 16 seconds is for a turbine already spinning in air, it takes about 60 to 75 to get it up to speed and generating from a standstill.

So, watching for the start of the closing credits (or a supply failure elsewhere) is a major part of grid / demand management.

In contrast, a coal-fired station has to have water already boiling to have anything like a quick response, which is why coal and nuclear plants do "base load" leaving gas and hydro to pick up when demand peaks suddenly. Wind is useful, but a lot less amenable to any sort of planning ......
There's various options being investigated to improve the flexibility of clean coal plants. Wind is not as flexible as you'd think being the operating envelope is quite narrow - too little wind or too much wind outside this and the turbines will either not work or will be shut down to prevent damage.
 
Having been to Climate Camp in the past I've no objection to green direct action - and action against fossil fuels specifically. However I'd rather Greenpeace established links with power and transport workers, supported them in industrial action and the like before launching this. Maybe they have, I've been out of that scene for a while, but I'm not optimistic.
 
If nuclear is low-carbon then surely it's a relevant option as far as climate change is concerned?

My point is that nuclear is commonly assumed to be de facto renewable/zero carbon. I have met very few people who get that it is not the embedded carbon costs of construction that are their major carbon load (althopugh these are of course pretty massive) but the fuel supply itself. In other words they are just another fossil fuel, albeit that only makes up a third to a half of their final output (IFYSWIM).


Not entirely true. Retracting the fuel rods will certainly decrease energy output, the rate of decrease being limited by the cooling rate of the heat transfer media (which would be an engineering problem, not a physical one). This would be more controllable and predictable than the vagaries of the weather which an all-renewable grid would be vulnerable to, and would avoid the carbon emissions associated with a hybrid gas-renewable grid.

My point wasn't that you can't vary output from nuclear power plants, just that it's massively inefficient to run them that way; you want to run them at their peak efficiency, constantly, otherwise their (already ludicrously high) generating costs go through the roof. That's pretty much the same with genuine renewables. So they compete for the base-load role. Gas doesn't need to do that, it is (energy wise) pretty good at turning on and off, although obviously there's an economic issue with the capital tied up in an under-used plant, but there's a hell of a lot less of that with gas than with nuclear, I mean less than a tenth.


Even the cleanest gas will still produce net additions to atmospheric carbon as an integral part of its operation. You can't avoid that.

And even the best nuclear will do exactly the same, in fact over the course of its life, and including the decommissioning costs, it is possible/likely that gas produces less GHG than nuclear. As I said.


Nonsense. Research into physics gets a lot of money, but that doesn't mean we have no cash left over for biological research. Same thing with nuclear and renewables.

Not at all nonsense. Not sure why you can't see this, it seems kind of obvious. There's a finite amount of capital available, what is spent on one thing cannot be spent on another. Opportunity costs and all that.

Who's building what design?

Er, I've posted several references to this, not sure how you missed them, but - EDF/Areva are building the EPR, a notoriously poor design. They are doing this for political reasons, relating to France's need for a replacement for its ageing nuclear fleet (and therefore to keep its fabulously expensive nuclear industry ticking over for the time being), embarrassment about scrapping the EPR and the resulting humiliation of having to buy in a technology which they have presented themselves to the world as World Leaders in, and of course the UK govts need to put a fig-leaf of "private capital" into the new nuclear programme here in the UK (when in reality the whole thing is going to be funded by taxpayers, UK and French - and possibly the Chinese if the rumours are right that tey are going to take a stake in Hinckley).

It's really bullshit on bullshit. A programme that won't deliver on de-carbonisation, that will cost billions of pounds, to produce incredibly expensive electricity, that will throttle our ability to create a renewable energy platform, using a design that most people get is really crap in order to save ideological and political embarrassment for people like Nikolas Sarkozy and Gordon Brown and the idiots who have followed them.

And at the end of which (and that will probably be at least a decade if other builds are any guide) it will - at best - produce 7% of the UK's electricity needs, so it doesn't solve any big problems anyway.

It makes projects like Concorde look smart.
 
Meanwhile in other news, Heysham and Hartlepool are both going to be shut down for 2-3 months for checks so they won't be on-stream over the first half of the winter and the UK has lost 4% of its generation overnight.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...-closed-until-winter-amid-blackout-fears.html

So much for nuclear's ability to "keep the lights on". When a nuclear plant has a shut down it's for months and it takes out a great bite of total production. They're inherently risky with regard to supply.
 
My point is that nuclear is commonly assumed to be de facto renewable/zero carbon. I have met very few people who get that it is not the embedded carbon costs of construction that are their major carbon load (althopugh these are of course pretty massive) but the fuel supply itself. In other words they are just another fossil fuel, albeit that only makes up a third to a half of their final output (IFYSWIM).

Again you seem to be ignoring the fact that proportionally increased carbon emissions from mining can be offset by reduced carbon emissions overall. And that's assuming that for whatever strange reason absolutely all mining, transport and decommissioning operations cannot be run off electrical power from grid on its way to being carbon-neutral.

My point wasn't that you can't vary output from nuclear power plants, just that it's massively inefficient to run them that way; you want to run them at their peak efficiency, constantly, otherwise their (already ludicrously high) generating costs go through the roof. That's pretty much the same with genuine renewables. So they compete for the base-load role. Gas doesn't need to do that, it is (energy wise) pretty good at turning on and off, although obviously there's an economic issue with the capital tied up in an under-used plant, but there's a hell of a lot less of that with gas than with nuclear, I mean less than a tenth.

Nuclear doesn't compete with renewables for the baseload role because renewables aren't universally an option in that respect. For instance, geothermal power in Iceland can fill the baseload role (to the point where they're in a position where they could export energy) but it can't do that in the UK.

And even the best nuclear will do exactly the same, in fact over the course of its life, and including the decommissioning costs, it is possible/likely that gas produces less GHG than nuclear. As I said.

You seem to be assuming that there will be no reduction in carbon emissions as industries move away from fossil fuels as an energy source, which makes absolutely no sense.

Not at all nonsense. Not sure why you can't see this, it seems kind of obvious. There's a finite amount of capital available, what is spent on one thing cannot be spent on another. Opportunity costs and all that.

There's a finite amount of capital available for any endeavour. My point is that capital can be divided amongst different efforts. There's no reason to put all of the energy generation eggs in one basket.

Er, I've posted several references to this, not sure how you missed them, but - EDF/Areva are building the EPR, a notoriously poor design. They are doing this for political reasons, relating to France's need for a replacement for its ageing nuclear fleet (and therefore to keep its fabulously expensive nuclear industry ticking over for the time being), embarrassment about scrapping the EPR and the resulting humiliation of having to buy in a technology which they have presented themselves to the world as World Leaders in, and of course the UK govts need to put a fig-leaf of "private capital" into the new nuclear programme here in the UK (when in reality the whole thing is going to be funded by taxpayers, UK and French - and possibly the Chinese if the rumours are right that tey are going to take a stake in Hinckley).

It's really bullshit on bullshit. A programme that won't deliver on de-carbonisation, that will cost billions of pounds, to produce incredibly expensive electricity, that will throttle our ability to create a renewable energy platform, using a design that most people get is really crap in order to save ideological and political embarrassment for people like Nikolas Sarkozy and Gordon Brown and the idiots who have followed them.

And at the end of which (and that will probably be at least a decade if other builds are any guide) it will - at best - produce 7% of the UK's electricity needs, so it doesn't solve any big problems anyway.

It makes projects like Concorde look smart.

You know, if they can screw up nuclear power projects that badly, then I'm far from exactly filled with confidence that they wouldn't screw up any number of renewables projects.
 
Are you saying you think nuclear is the answer to GHG?

I did, until I did a bit reading up,then it becomes abundantly clear that it isn't, what I can't understand is there isn't a move to tidal, loch Etive see 66,000,000 tons of water going in and out on every tide.
 
I did, until I did a bit reading up,then it becomes abundantly clear that it isn't, what I can't understand is there isn't a move to tidal, loch Etive see 66,000,000 tons of water going in and out on every tide.

The tidal lagoon project in Swansea looks promising. It's not going to generate vast amounts of power by itself but it should help to demonstrate a concept that can be replicated or scaled up.
 
Reprocessing significantly reduces the volume of waste and the rest can be dealt with using short-term storage to allow the nastier stuff to dissipate (it's nastier because it's more energetic, and if it's more energetic then it can't last all that long) followed by vitrification of the remaining waste. This isn't to say that dealing with nuclear waste is utterly trivial, but neither is it the insoluble conundrum that anti-nuclear partisans like to try to portray it as.

If it's not an insoluble conundrum then maybe the nuclear industry should solve it before they create any more nuclear waste. Because if they turn about to be wrong about how easy it is to safely get rid of the stuff, then we're in serious trouble.

Also I'm not sure what sort of 'reprocessing' you're talking about but as far as I'm aware the half-life of a radioactive isotope is a constant.
 
Are you saying you think nuclear is the answer to GHG?

I think that no single energy source is the answer. Nuclear and the various renewables both have their place because they have different advantages and disadvantages. For example, nuclear fission would be no good for Iceland because they are already more than self-sufficient from geothermal sources.

If it's not an insoluble conundrum then maybe the nuclear industry should solve it before they create any more nuclear waste. Because if they turn about to be wrong about how easy it is to safely get rid of the stuff, then we're in serious trouble.

Considering that widespread fossil fuel combustion has already caused global changes that nuclear fission has yet to match, I'd say we're already in serious trouble. As for the future, nuclear waste is a lot more controllable than the waste products of fossil fuels, which are and have been released into the environment with nowhere near the same level of oversight.

Also I'm not sure what sort of 'reprocessing' you're talking about but as far as I'm aware the half-life of a radioactive isotope is a constant.

But that does not mean the risks are constant. An isotope with a long half-life gives off less radioactive energy per pound per day than a radioisotope with a shorter half-life.
 
Fair enough, my assumption was based on reps from UK coal stating most of their current problems were a result of The US dumping cheap coal onto EU markets as a result of gas fracking destabilising their markets.

Powder River Basin coal (known as PRB) is way cheaper than Appalachian coal (v good quality) by about 80% (http://www.eia.gov/coal/news_markets/) but apart from a trial at Drax back in 2010 I'm not aware of it being used in the UK. It is be being used elsewhere in Europe. Bear in mind you need more of it to get the same amount of power compared to Appalachian coal.
 
Powder River Basin coal (known as PRB) is way cheaper than Appalachian coal (v good quality) by about 80% (http://www.eia.gov/coal/news_markets/) but apart from a trial at Drax back in 2010 I'm not aware of it being used in the UK. It is be being used elsewhere in Europe. Bear in mind you need more of it to get the same amount of power compared to Appalachian coal.

Just know we were having to stockpile OC product up here,as all he trains available were being used to distribute American coal arriving at Immingham.
A result of the US coal industry having a huge surplus due to the development of fracking
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-26072805
Seems a fairly big generation project and another 5 like it would provide 10% of the UKs energy needs? Crack on and get them built and scrap Hinkley
It's £850m for 320MW with a 120 year life, which in the scale of things isn't that much. Turning Longannet into the first full-scale carbon capture coal plant was estimated at £1.5bn for 2,400MW for an additional 30 year life, which is approximately 25% of the required generating capacity for Scotland's (if I've done the calculation correctly). Hinkley is estimated at £16bn for 3,200 MW and a 60 year life.

The cost per MW per year is therefore:
Tidal barrage swansea bay = £22,135/MW/year
Longannet CCS = £20,833/MW/year
Hinkley C = £83,333/MW/year

This is a crude comparison as many factors have been ignored, but it does show that CCS and tidal barrages are almost 25% cheaper than nuclear over the lifetime of the plant.
 
Just know we were having to stockpile OC product up here,as all he trains available were being used to distribute American coal arriving at Immingham.
A result of the US coal industry having a huge surplus due to the development of fracking
US coal is more widely used in Spain and other European countries than here as best I can tell, and is not without issues (can become sticky, and stick to parts of the combustion system you don't want it stuck to, causing a lot of damage).
 
It's £850m for 320MW with a 120 year life, which in the scale of things isn't that much. Turning Longannet into the first full-scale carbon capture coal plant was estimated at £1.5bn for 2,400MW for an additional 30 year life, which is approximately 25% of the required generating capacity for Scotland's (if I've done the calculation correctly). Hinkley is estimated at £16bn for 3,200 MW and a 60 year life.

The cost per MW per year is therefore:
Tidal barrage swansea bay = £22,135/MW/year
Longannet CCS = £20,833/MW/year
Hinkley C = £83,333/MW/year

This is a crude comparison as many factors have been ignored, but it does show that CCS and tidal barrages are almost 25% cheaper than nuclear over the lifetime of the plant.

But CC has a lot of problems to overcome and nobody seems to think it is possible never mind economically viable, but the Swansea project seems to offer a real solution in a very short timescale, in fact it seems to be to good to be true, that's why I posted it up on E&S to see if those better informed could poke holes in it.
 
But CC has a lot of problems to overcome and nobody seems to think it is possible never mind economically viable, but the Swansea project seems to offer a real solution in a very short timescale, in fact it seems to be to good to be true, that's why I posted it up on E&S to see if those better informed could poke holes in it.
It's been proven at smaller scale so it's definitely possible. Still a ways to go mind.
 
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