Greek elections

[MochaSoul]

Is that the big picture you see? Only trouble is it's inaccurate; what are the national democratic mandates relating to Greece...apart from the Greeks own referendum? And it's really not that big; what is being articulated in the referendum vote and the talk of the EU finance ministers and the ECB?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

If the Portuguese people had been given the chance to vote for/against the packages Europe threw their way (and which resulted in, among other things, people's pensions being reduced as well as pension age raised) they would have voted "Não" as the Greek people did.
Unfortunately, the Portuguese government, just like PASOK and New Democracy, wasn't, in the least, interested in listening to them. Hence the haemorrage of people out of Portugal and the Geração à Rasca* protests of 2011/12 (biggest since the people went out on the streets in 74).

*Generation in Trouble

 

[Athos]

oh: & Diamond, Athos is cleverer than you

Not that much of a compliment, really.

 

[belboid]

since there isn't a society of people who feel, first and foremost that they are European

I wouldn't be too sure about that. I'd certainly say there are a fair number of people for whom being European is at least as important as being [insert nation state here]

 

[Diamond]

oh: & Diamond, Athos is cleverer than you

Nice circle jerk.

 

[DotCommunist]

WTF is that jacket he's wearing? Even I'd make more effort if I'd just been appointed Finance Minister

nothing beats zizecks crap t shirts

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain.

They all share the same currency with Greece so what the Greeks try and do economically directly relates to them.

Those are the democratic mandates that within the eurozone tend to or may pull in different directions.

Those are the names of countries; where are the processes that provide their economic ministries with democratic mandates directly related to the situation facing the Greek people?

Louis MacNeice

p.s. why no response to the point about the smallness of your big picture?

 

[Diamond]

Not that much of a compliment, really.

Jerked back with interest.

 

[weltweit]

Funny time to replace your finance minister, in the middle of a time critical negotiation, and it was not necessary for the Greek finance minister to be liked, in order to negotiate a deal.

 

[Athos]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. I'd certainly say there are a fair number of people for whom being European is at least as important as being [insert nation state here]

I'd be surprised if they represent a significant proportion, anywhere, let alone across the EU as a whole.

 

[nino_savatte]

Varoufakis may be a very good economist but that in no way equates to being a good negotiator.

*shrugs* What Schäuble and the rest of the Eurocrats hated was the way Varoufakis outsmarted them. So, are you saying that Schäuble and co are better negotiators? Hilarious.

 

[MochaSoul]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. I'd certainly say there are a fair number of people for whom being European is at least as important as being [insert nation state here]

But the importance attached to being "European" is easily eroded once the "union" gets shown up for what it really is. I know I, fully immersed in young naiveté, used to think the PCP* back in the land was too negative as they gave their warnings re the then EEC, even as I agreed with them for the most part re everything else. I no longer think the same way.

ETA: *Portuguese Communist Party

 

[Diamond]

Those are the names of countries; where are the processes that provide their economic ministries with democratic mandates directly related to the situation facing the Greek people?

Louis MacNeice

That's a slightly roundabout way to getting to the heart of the matter.

Monetary union requires fiscal union which, in turn, requires political union.

 

[Pickman's model]

Nice circle jerk.

there's no circle and only one jerk ^^

 

[nino_savatte]

He's an academic trying to be a politician - what a suprise, he's not very good at it!

Whereas our careerist politicians are what? Better politicians? Fuck's sake, what fucking planet are you on?

 

[butchersapron]

I haven't read Habermas, I read some Berger this year. Are there parallels - authority comes from perceived objectivity, acquired through habitualisation, & these European financial institutions, separated from traditional political bodies, don't have the historicity of a link to society & consequently lack crucial parts of that process? Haven't been sufficiently institutionalised?

One thing habermas talks about is the institutions that the state historically established to maintain or produce authority/legitimacy is that they were based on instrumental reasoning and logic (we might say technocratic for the wider bodies today, or rhetorically objective ) rather than being the result of collective discussion (he loves discussion) and shared agreed aims, so that even the institutions that appear to best demonstrate shared interests(the NHS for example) are shot though with that power/authority conflict. Even institutionalisation carries the problem within it. And yes, at the eu level they haven't even reached that stage.

(Btw there's a new collection of habermas on technocracy and the eu just been published, I shall upload it when I get a chance shortly).

 

[Diamond]

*shrugs* What Schäuble and the rest of the Eurocrats hated was the way Varoufakis outsmarted them. So, are you saying that Schäuble and co are better negotiators? Hilarious.

How did he outsmart them?

What results did he achieve?

 

[Pickman's model]

That's a slightly roundabout way to getting to the heart of the matter.

Monetary union requires fiscal union which, in turn, requires political union.

jesus mary & joseph

 

[nino_savatte]

How did he outsmart them?

What results did he achieve?

You really don't get it, do you? You only see this in black and white.

Schäuble, contrary to popular belief, is not an economist, nor is Merkel or the others. Does that help? Probably not.

 

[MochaSoul]

Argh... Foda-se!

 

[nino_savatte]

 

[nino_savatte]

Nice circle jerk.

 

[Diamond]

You really don't get it, do you? You only see this in black and white.

Schäuble, contrary to popular belief, is not an economist, nor is Merkel or the others. Does that help? Probably not.

What are the results of his negotiating strategy?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

That's a slightly roundabout way to getting to the heart of the matter.

Monetary union requires fiscal union which, in turn, requires political union.

You're not getting to the heart of anything; in fact I'm getting the distinct impression that you just don't understand either of the points I'm trying to make. So one more time:

1. Greek voters were asked their attitude towards the proposed continuation of austerity they and gave their response. When have the peoples of the other Eurozone members been asked such a question?

2. What is the larger framing context within which the tension between the mandate as expressed by Greek voters and the desires stated by various Eurozone ministers and ECB bankers, is being played out?

Louis MacNeice

 

[Diamond]

jesus mary & joseph

Eloquently vague, as always.

 

[nino_savatte]

What are the results of his negotiating strategy?

Conversely, what are the results of the Eurocrats negotiating strategy?

Take your time.

 

[nino_savatte]

Did the Eurocrats get what they wanted, Diamond?

 

[weltweit]

Also, so Greece had a referendum to ditch the previous EU proposal, but now don't have a new proposal themselves. They spent a week ditching the existing proposal and yet they didn't yet come up with a new one, worrying.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Also, so Greece had a referendum to ditch the previous EU proposal, but now don't have a new proposal themselves. They spent a week ditching the existing proposal and yet they didn't yet come up with a new one, worrying.

Surely they are waiting to see what the tensions in the rest of the Eurozone are before playing their hand?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Diamond]

You're not getting to the heart of anything; in fact I'm getting the distinct impression that you just don't understand either of the points I'm trying to make. So one more time:

1. Greek voters were asked their attitude towards the proposed continuation of austerity they and gave their response. When have the peoples of the other Eurozone members been asked such a question?

2. What is the larger framing context within which the tension between the mandate as expressed by Greek voters and the desires stated by various Eurozone ministers and ECB bankers, is being played out?

Louis MacNeice

First, other voters in other countries have agreed to both (i) their austerity programme and (ii) the bail-out of Greece that is conditional on austerity reforms time and again by voting in their sovereign governments to negotiate terms with Greece. If Greek voters want to vote against those terms, that is fine but there are also consequences around such a decision - any country anywhere can vote in a government that chooses a decision that runs contrary to the wishes of their peers and that's totally correct but it usually carries significant costs with it. This is an extreme example because we have a currency union without any of the superstructure that makes such a grouping work effectively and, now, it has hit the buffers so hard that it is fracturing very quickly.

Second, I would be very surprised if you could find anyone in Brussels among the eurocrats that want Greece to leave the EU. That would be a doomsday scenario from their point of view. I know a few of them and they are pretty scared. The people who do want Greece to leave, foolishly in my view, are the electorates of other eurozone countries who understand perfectly well that they are propping up Greece.

 

[Diamond]

Did the Eurocrats get what they wanted, Diamond?

No, certainly not.

But, as referred to before I think on this thread, it takes a remarkable amount of arrogant obstinance to unite almost everyone out of perhaps 30+ major players that you are negotiating with against you.

And then you, most probably, ride off on a motorbike into some cushy new academic tenured position where you can lecture a bit more, publish more books and generally avoid the economic shitstorm that you have helped bring down on your nation that you were supposed to serve.