Greek elections

[butchersapron]

As the proposed EU bail-out extension won't be voted on in Greek Parliament, don't think Syriza is too confident of its political power. (Will have to voted on in a number of other EU states parliaments oddly enough), and its using the last of its pension pot to repay IMF ones over the next few weeks, don't think that will be voted on either

They could get it passed in Parliament easy.

A useful piece from M Roberts here that also challenges some of the myths around Iceland and Argentina (or at least provides links to previous challenges) of the myths and narratives. Essentially argues against, but also with lapavitsas, that:

The issue for the labour movement is not the “illusions” that the left has in the “absurdity of the common currency” (as Lapavitsas calls it), but the illusion that capitalism can be made to deliver people’s needs (something that Varoufakis has encouraged – see my post). It is breaking with capitalism that matters, not breaking with the euro. The latter may flow from the former BUT the former does not flow from the latter.

He goes on to say that

establishment of a new drachma will not mean prosperity for Greece if Greece’s weak and corrupt capitalist sector continues to dominate the economy.

the talk of a 'capitalist sector' suggests that he simply takes non-capitalist to mean classically nationalised state owned and ran industries.

 

[Coolfonz]

I'm afraid it's not so simple.

For example there is an obvious difference between political and economic power. Syriza have the former but not the latter. The coming months will see a major confrontation between these two forms of power, and the outcome is anybody's guess. We will not be helped in our endeavor to understand this process by simplistic declarations that "you either have it or you don't."

If Syriza disbanded the fascist-infiltrated police squads, gave all its people medical cover and electricity...then vanished into thin air never to be seen again, it would be better than what went before. And it comes from having power, not from dreaming about the benevolent nature of social and political collapse and how some post-capitalist new order would arise from the ashes of people's savings/jobs/housing/pensions/lives...

 

[brogdale]

there is an obvious difference between political and economic power. Syriza have the former but not the latter.

I think that's debatable. They may have legitimacy and the resulting political authority, but it remains to be seen whether they have the political power to effect the change they desire.

 

[butchersapron]

Stuff from the weekend:

1) Syriza had a two day central committee meeting which resulted in a new general secretary

For the vote for the new 11 members-large political secretariat, the list of the majority bloc got 110 votes (6 seats), the Left Platform 63 (4 seats), the maoists (KOE) 21 (1 seat), an Independant list 2 votes (0 seat), + 3 abstentions.

2) The full text of the left platform amendment put at the meeting (in the link above) opposing the agreement:

“We express our disagreement with the agreement and the list of reforms agreed with the Eurogroup.

Both texts represent an undesirable compromise for our country and move in directions and orientations are within, which, in their essential points, move away or are in plain contrast with the programmatic commitments of SYRIZA.

In the immediate future, SYRIZA, despite the agreements of the Eurogroup, should take the initiative of implementing steadily and as a matter of priority its commitments and the content of its programmatic governmental statement.

To go down that road, we have to rely on workers' and popular struggles, to contribute to their revitalization, and to the continuous expansion of popular support in order to resist to any form of blackmail and promote the perspective of an alternative plan promoting the full realization of our radical objectives.

The main conclusion of the latest developments is the necessity, which is of decisive importance for the course we will follow, that decisions should be taken following a discussion in the leading party instances, which have, jointly with the party and the party branches as a whole, to upgrade their function and play a leading role in the new progressive course of our country”.

3) The result:

The amendment submitted by the Left Platform rejecting the Eurogroup agreement and the "list of reforms" submitted by the government got 41% of the vote, with 55% against and 4% abstaining or voting blank (the votes were: 68 in favour, 92 against, 6 abstentions/blank votes).

The Left Platform has now significantly extended its influence, incorporating in the strategic votes the maoists of KOE and the group around the (now former) head of the economic department of the party John Milios.

 

[brogdale]

Stuff from the weekend:

1) Syriza had a two day central committee meeting which resulted in a new general secretary



2) The full text of the left platform amendment put at the meeting (in the link above) opposing the agreement:



3) The result:

Interesting stuff. Would this alter your view that Syriza could easily getting the agreement bail-out extension through parliament?

 

[butchersapron]

Interesting stuff. Would this alter your view that Syriza could easily getting the agreement bail-out extension through parliament?

I think even if 50% of the Syriza MPs voted against (75) ND and Pasok together have 90 and can easily make up the gap - and there's no chance they want to provoke more elections by voting against right now, not when syriza support has gone up and doing so will be popularly seen as bringing them down - for which they will be punished even further.

 

[Coolfonz]

A useful piece from M Roberts here that...

Very good piece. The madness of EU law where state-controlled banks can lend to other sovereigns that are not allowed to nationalise their banks. Where state-owned energy and train and xxx companies can buy other nation's grids/lines and abcs but those nations can't nationalise property on their own soil...

 

[brogdale]

I think even if 50% of the Syriza MPs voted against (75) ND and Pasok together have 90 and can easily make up the gap - and there's no chance they want to provoke more elections by voting against right now, not when syriza support has gone up and doing so will be popularly seen as bringing them down - for which they will be punished even further.

Oh yeah; I see. So I suppose it was more a case of not wishing to expose internal party factionalism?

 

[butchersapron]

Oh yeah; I see. So I suppose it was more a case of not wishing to expose internal party factionalism?

Exactly.

 

[newbie]

not got a link but supposedly

Weekend Macropolis poll:
What would you vote now if there were elections?
SYRIZA 42.1
New Democracy 18.3
Potami 5.7
Golden Dawn 5.3
KKE 4.1
Ind Greeks 3.8
Pasok 3

SYRIZA up just under 6% since the election, New Democracy down 9.5%. Gain of 12.5% for SYRIZA since last poll by Macropolis.

Should Greece stay in the euro or return to the Drachma?
Euro 81
Drachma 15

this seems to be a source
also including

The vast majority of respondents (68%) said they are satisfied with Greece’s negotiations with Europe, while 23% considers the government’s handling of the talks as negative.

Another 76% sees the government’s course as positive so far, versus 18% who have a negative opinion.

Of those participating in the poll, 81% are in favor of Greece staying in the euro, while only 15% prefer returning to the drachma.

- See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/201...lead-over-new-democracy/#sthash.9h5bYETN.dpuf

worth noting that when Lapavitsas talks about the "tremendous popular support we still enjoy", he's right. Yet the Euro has more, and he doesn't mention how he views that.

 

[J Ed]

Chomsky commenting on Syriza and Podemos

 

[brogdale]

Yanis' latest 'begging letter' to Dijsselbloem (seeking the first €7.2bn of the proposed €172bn), includes details of the reforms that Syriza are intending to implement. The third reform listed, the "onlookers" proposal has raised a few eyebrows...

Hmmm...tourists wired to snoop on taverna owners not offering receipts...rly?

 

[brogdale]

So the Eurobankers have told the Greeks to go home and re-do their homework again.

Interesting reaction from Syriza's coalition partner Kammenos...

Panos Kammenos, the Greek defence minister, warned that if the eurozone allowed Greece to go bust it would give EU travel papers to illegal immigrants crossing its borders or to the 10,000 currently held in detention centres.

"If they deal a blow to Greece, then they should know the the migrants will get papers to go to Berlin,” he said.

"If Europe leaves us in the crisis, we will flood it with migrants, and it will be even worse for Berlin if in that wave of millions of economic migrants there will be some jihadists of the Islamic State too.”

All going well, then.

 

[DownwardDog]

So the Eurobankers have told the Greeks to go home and re-do their homework again.

Has the Snooper Squad idea been knocked back?

 

[brogdale]

Has the Snooper Squad idea been knocked back?

Surprisingly, it would appear so.

 

[phildwyer]

Interesting reaction from Syriza's coalition partner Kammenos...

Ha, that's funny. Good for him. He should do it anyway.

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...europe-including-isis-jihadists-10097432.html

Mr Kammenos said: “If they deal a blow to Greece, then they should know the the migrants will get papers to go to Berlin.”

“If Europe leaves us in the crisis, we will flood it with migrants, and it will be even worse for Berlin if in that wave of millions of economic migrants there will be some jihadists of the Islamic State too.

Mr Kammenos, who is also the leader of Syriza’s minor coalition partners Independent Greeks, specifically referred to the Schengen area of free travel in his threat, and said his country would give all comers papers so they “could go straight to Berlin”.

 

[butchersapron]

Does anyone have any info abut how (or not) Syriza are opening up or encouraging wider social participation in their aims/plans/organising?

 

[brogdale]

From the neo-liberal cheerleaders (Bloomberg), but still looking like capitulation...

Over in Greece local media are making much of revelations that Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis was strong-armed into allowing inspectors representing the deeply unpopular troika to return to Athens.

Greek officials are keeping mum but EU sources in Brussels have revealed in no uncertain terms that Athens was posed with an ultimatum: either it allowed auditors to examine its books, in situ, or emergency funds would be stopped.

The ultimatum was made by no less than ECB president Mario Draghi, according to officials cited in a Bloomberg report. Greece is fast approaching the day of reckoning with room for manoeuvre becoming ever narrower as it races against the clock - and a mountain of maturing debt repayments - to avoid a credit crunch. Athens must repay €300 million to the IMF by the end of the week.

Economists are saying the situation is becoming desperate. Liquidity fears are such that the leftist-led government has reportedly beseeched the Greek subsidiaries of multinational firms for short-term loans.

The General Accounting office, it was revealed today, has also stopped payments on any state expenditure not related to pensions or salaries - and fears are growing of an “internal default” which could see the government making reduced payments to pensioners and public employees.

Maybe they do really want out?

 

[butchersapron]

From the neo-liberal cheerleaders (Bloomberg), but still looking like capitulation...


Maybe they do really want out?

This is part of what i'm finding frustrating - there is clearly a split in the syriza CC and the differences should be out being argued on the streets, in mass meetings - opened up. But they seem to have accepted the logic of do it behind closed doors except for private individual briefings to journos in order to maintain the party and electoral integrity.

Michael Perelman is on an email list that i'm on, he said yesterday that he had been over in greece and talking to high up bods including the economic team and they said that grexit was something the last govt invented to scare the voters away from syriza - that the latter had no plans or commitment to it if it became necessary.

 

[brogdale]

This is part of what i'm finding frustrating - there is clearly a split in the syriza CC and the differences should be out being argued on the streets, in mass meetings - opened up. But they seem to have accepted the logic of do it behind closed doors except for private individual briefings to journos in order to maintain the party and electoral integrity.

Michael Perelman is on an email list that i'm on, he said yesterday that he had been over in greece and talking to high up bods including the economic team and they said that grexit was something the last govt invented to scare the voters away from syriza - that the latter had no plans or commitment to it if it became necessary.

In other words, they're behaving as any other executive of a representative democracy.

 

[butchersapron]

In other words, they're behaving as any other executive of a representative democracy.

...and at a time when the opportunity exists to do something very different.

 

[brogdale]

...and at a time when the opportunity exists to do something very different.

Well, quite.
At this rate I suspect that they will be encouraging wider social participation on the streets pretty soon.

Meanwhile, the Eurofin diktats are becoming more explicit and abrasive...

Jeroen Dijsselbloem has issued a fresh warning on Greece following the meeting of EU finance ministers in Brussels.

The Greek situation was not on the agenda at today’s Ecofin meeting, but it was impossible for ministers to escape the subject while agreement on Greek reforms has yet to be reached.

Dijsselbloem, eurogroup president and Dutch finance minister, said the markets will lose confidence in Greece if it doesn’t come up with acceptable reforms proposals.

 

[NoXion]

...and at a time when the opportunity exists to do something very different.

Out of interest, what could they do/have done exactly? Would you say that Syriza's forswearing of Grexit has limited their options?

 

[butchersapron]

I'm talking about the opening up, the democratisation,the massification of the debate about what they could have done - not what policy choices they could have made.

 

[Coolfonz]

I'm talking about the opening up, the democratisation,the massification of the debate about what they could have done - not what policy choices they could have made.

They might feel if they are open it just allows the forces weighed against them to simply pick them/their arguments off.
They have time pressure as well...at the very least four months, if not a lot less. It isn't looking very positive at the moment. But that is the fault of the EU minus Greece and previous Greek administrations...

 

[treelover]

How will the far right benefit if it all goes wrong as many are now predicting, more members, more votes, boots on the ground? or a paradigm shift where they will be seen as Syriza has been or will there just be collapse of moral and a 'plague on all their houses'

really really sad if is does collapse.

 

[butchersapron]

They might feel if they are open it just allows the forces weighed against them to simply pick them/their arguments off.
They have time pressure as well...at the very least four months, if not a lot less. It isn't looking very positive at the moment.

Oh no, the thing that is against us might argue against us!

However, mobilising and making new people who are for us...nah.

 

[Coolfonz]

Oh no, the thing that is against us might argue against us!

However, mobilising and making new people who are for us...nah.

I wasn't dismissing your point I was taking a punt at why Syriza is reacting the way it has.

And are they definitely not mobilising their support?

 

[butchersapron]

I wasn't dismissing your point I was taking a punt at why Syriza is reacting the way it has.

And are they definitely not mobilising their support?

You, again, slightly misread what i was on about - it wasn't syriza support but making the questions and issues real live social issues where people participate and take part in formulating responses - responses that will go beyond the idea of a single party/coalition deciding how things must go.

I have looked for a massification, an opening up, but i haven't found any - that's why i asked earlier. The people who will be getting their electricity back on and that sort of thing might at least help that process if syriza want it - but i don't see that those in charge right now want this to happen.