Greece. The inconvenient referendum...

[sihhi]

The KKE will be happy then. A KKE Mp, Liana Canalis (sp) was on tv last night condemning the referendum, rather wittily as it's like 'being asked if you want to be killed or to die', and demanding an election. So, so-called revolutionary KKE demanding the return to bourgeous democratic politics and an election.... What then if a pro-austerity government wins?!

You know the answer Fed. But for others. KKE are a pro-austerity party.
It joined a national unity government in 1989 (led by tory backbencher Zanis Zannetakis, with the conservatives the main party) to impose new restrictions on the right of trade unions to be recognised. It got the justice and home office ministries and as a means of "putting the past behind us" destroyed secret police files from 1967-75 which could have been used to prosecute the thousands of torturers in the Greek police and army. ΚΚΕ Εsoterikou - the main part of the Syriza today - was also a part of that coalition.
This has become known to Greek leftists as the Vromiko 89 - the dirty 89 (compromise).

Today's KKE says it was against the coalition just betrayed by unreliable people at the top - but the ideology, habits and slogans - 'against monopoly capitalism, for a strong national economy' - are all the same. It's Eurocommunism - it's the same in the Die Linke, the NPA in France, the CPB's pro-Labourism here.

 

[TopCat]

Papendreou got bent over and fucked by Merkozy. The Greek people are a bit more upset than they were. Stock markets soar to a new high etc..

 

[weltweit]

PASOK, Papandreou's party, only holds 152 seats (151 required for a majority) it looks as if he will be forced to make a coalition which will then agree the bailout and hold prompt elections. So perhaps there may not be a referendum after all.

 

[TopCat]

" I am a 36-year-old mother living in Greece. Should you have children you will be able to capture the feeling of the following everyday stories. Children at school in Athens fainted because of hunger. An adult in my home town waited for a child to come out of a bakery and stole the bread of the boy's hands. How many days should one be hungry before they leave their children hungry? In Greece probably a lot. Drachma or Euro is indifferent to me. The best currency is one that will stop the above happening."

I have said for years that revolutionary politics only start to make sense to many when their kids have not ate for two days. I think we are at the one day stage right now.

 

[sihhi]

" I am a 36-year-old mother living in Greece. Should you have children you will be able to capture the feeling of the following everyday stories. Children at school in Athens fainted because of hunger. An adult in my home town waited for a child to come out of a bakery and stole the bread of the boy's hands. How many days should one be hungry before they leave their children hungry? In Greece probably a lot. Drachma or Euro is indifferent to me. The best currency is one that will stop the above happening."

I have said for years that revolutionary politics only start to make sense to many when their kids have not ate for two days. I think we are at the one day stage right now.

The Greek Orthodox Church stops revolutionary politics it owns lots of farms and controls the food supply provided you grovel for it in their monasteries.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The Turkish people don't want anything to do with the Euro.

Unfortunately, the people of nation-states rarely have a proper say in policy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Wrong. And why, given the results didn't endorse austerity (nor have the polls since) is it being imposed? Have you a tinyurl to explain that?

He's got a tiny something.

 

[phildwyer]

I have said for years that revolutionary politics only start to make sense to many when their kids have not ate for two days. I think we are at the one day stage right now.

A friend of mine here in the USA reports that some kids in her daughter's class are coming to school hungry--they go to dinner round at hers, cos their families don't have enough. These are middle-class people who lived well on two incomes, but really struggle when one is made redundant.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's up to them to decide though.

That's assuming that "they" (the people) get a choice in what happens. Bear in mind that they're only a generation or so outside of military rule. People won't get a say if there's a coup, or if a faction of politicians decide on extra-democratic tactics, both of which could be "excused" via reference to the ongoing civil unrest.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

That's assuming that "they" (the people) get a choice in what happens. Bear in mind that they're only a generation or so outside of military rule. People won't get a say if there's a coup, or if a faction of politicians decide on extra-democratic tactics, both of which could be "excused" via reference to the ongoing civil unrest.

I'm hearing on the news here that they've made a deal to avoid putting it to a vote.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I'm hearing on the news here that they've made a deal to avoid putting it to a vote.

Very high risk by the Greek political class. Having promised a vote, to then attempt to sign up for further austerity measures without one could really kick things off. Add in a possible attempt to impose military rule in response to the inevitable protests that would emerge and the previous street movements could soon resemble a tea party.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Steve Bell sums it up nicely

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Very high risk by the Greek political class. Having promised a vote, to then attempt to sign up for further austerity measures without one could really kick things off. Add in a possible attempt to impose military rule in response to the inevitable protests that would emerge and the previous street movements could soon resemble a tea party.

Indeed. If every party standing in an upcoming election basically supports austerity, there could be trouble. And quite right too. Give them their referendum. Greece's politics being dictated by the rest of Europe is not democracy.

This is the worst of all worlds at the moment. In a properly constituted united states of Europe, there would be some kind of representation per person. At the moment representation is effectively per euro.

 

[discokermit]

Am I the only urb who has a soft spot for Farage?

i've liked him since the aeroplane crash.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He's a personable cunt. The worst kind of cunt, really.

He couldn't wait to join in with John Cleese's incoherent anti-immigrant rant the other month. That shows him up for what he really is. Being anti immigration in the future almost invariably shows you to be anti immigrants who are already here. This is most certainly the case with Faridge. We should not forget what a nasty cunt he is.

 

[weltweit]

He couldn't wait to join in with John Cleese's incoherent anti-immigrant rant the other month. That shows him up for what he really is. Being anti immigration in the future almost invariably shows you to be anti immigrants who are already here. This is most certainly the case with Faridge. We should not forget what a nasty cunt he is.

No I don't agree LBJ, one can feel that there has been enough imigration and that population levels need and perhaps should not rise much further than they are at the moment without being a racist which is the hidden accusation of your post. If things progress as they are it is estimated we may soon have 70,000,000 people on this island, population has to be an issue unless you are prepared to keep building new cities the size of Birmingham every few years.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

one might think like that, but Faridge doesn't. And politicians who push that line are invariably like him - nasty cunts.

There is no hidden accusation to my post, btw. I don't hide things in my posts. But Faridge bemoans the way that London has changed over the years to become multicultural. How is that anything other than a statement of antipathy towards the immigration that has already happened?

 

[weltweit]

one might think like that, but Faridge doesn't. And politicians who push that line are invariably like him - nasty cunts.

There is no hidden accusation to my post, btw. I don't hide things in my posts. But Faridge bemoans the way that London has changed over the years to become multicultural. How is that anything other than a statement of antipathy towards the immigration that has already happened?

Ok perhaps less hidden even, you say he is a nasty cunt and you imply he is anti multicultural which to me is a warning sign for your saying that he is racist. I didn't hear or read anything about him or by him about multiculturalism but I do believe there is room for his anti EU voice, someone has to take that line, it is a valid political position, and so why not him, he does voice it quite eloquently.

When even Britain was viewing the Euro with scepticism, was it right that Greece, basically a quite poor country should be saddled with the same economic straightjacket that Germany embraced, they are very different economies and as it turns out Greece has failed to thrive in the Euro. One might say there but by the grace of god go we.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Being anti-euro isn't the same thing, though. Have a look at what John Cleese said about the changes to London. Google it. Then remember that Faridge jumped in to say how right Cleese was.

 

[weltweit]

Being anti-euro isn't the same thing, though. Have a look at what John Cleese said about the changes to London. Google it. Then remember that Faridge jumped in to say how right Cleese was.

I remember the thread about Cleese on here. So Farage aligned himself with that, I would say that was probably unwise, Cleese just struck me as out of touch, he does not even live here anymore no? Whether either of them like it or not London is multicultural. (full stop) there is no turning back time.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He enthusiastically endorsed Cleese's position. Cleese I can partially forgive for being an old fool. But faridge... ?

 

[weltweit]

He enthusiastically endorsed Cleese's position. Cleese I can partially forgive for being an old fool. But faridge... ?

Well perhaps there is something dubious about him after all.

Have to say though, I know some old english gents of Cleese's age (perhaps a touch older) who share his sentiments, I would not describe them as racist, they are the last of the last generation from WWII and they are just not prepared for change any more.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But that doesn't describe Faridge, does it? What's his excuse?

I know people like that as well, btw, and I don't judge them harshly necessarily. But Faridge? Surely he is to be judged by different standards.

 

[redsquirrel]

Indeed. If every party standing in an upcoming election basically supports austerity, there could be trouble. And quite right too. Give them their referendum. Greece's politics being dictated by the rest of Europe is not democracy.

I don't think we should see this (non) referendum as anything really democratic - it was an attempted tactical move by Papandreou to try and greg the Greeks to accept the austerity measures.

That said the squeals from the rest of the G20 that people might actually have some input into the decisions that affect them marks them for exactly what they are. Not that we didn't know that already.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Democratic measures often take place despite the politicians' best efforts to prevent them. That's nothing new. I would like to give the protesters on the streets at least some of the credit for the call for a referendum!

 

[London_Calling]

Being anti-euro isn't the same thing, though. Have a look at what John Cleese said about the changes to London. Google it. Then remember that Faridge jumped in to say how right Cleese was.

There is no hidden accusation to my post, btw. I don't hide things in my posts. But Faridge bemoans the way that London has changed over the years to become multicultural. How is that anything other than a statement of antipathy towards the immigration that has already happened?

You sound an awful lot like Gordon Brown before the election on immigration. Way, way behind the curve in terms of actuality and perceptions.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There is an important difference between Gordon Brown and me. He sought people's votes and expressed his 'opinions' accordingly. I don't seek anyone's vote. I will express the same opinion regardless of its popularity.

So no, I don't sound anything like Gordon Brown, and he certainly didn't express anything like my opinions before the last election or at any time.

 

[London_Calling]

You sound exactly as he did talking about Gillian Duffy, and as emphaticaly close-minded as he did. You're a decade late about London.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You are the Great British Public and I claim my five pounds.