19sixtysix
Life as viewed from a Gay Gorbals Garret
Greek parliament has voted through more debt.
Greece: Euro crisis
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dennisr
the acceptable face
no surprise there - they have to enforce this now though. The people have had two years - I think they have had more than enough of promises of 'tighten your belts and the worst will be over' - it just got worse again.
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
especially if the police union is against it, they need someone to keep the crowds from the doors of parliament...
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
How is a change of heads at an election going to help? Who are they going to vote for that gives them an out from austerity?
Someone who won't allow their country to be run by the EU? Someone who will tell people he will stand up for their own country?
Giles..
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
But who?! The KKE's warmed-up Keynesianism? The Hard Right's austerity but with less foreigners?!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
A man of destiny perhaps?
Elections cannot overturn the structural imperatives and central dynamics of capital. At best, you can help - through the abject failure of any such attempts - to further develop the (ongoing and well advanced) crisis of legitimacy the Greek state-capital and the EU etc is experiencing and demonstrate though this failure to others resisting austerity how not to do it.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Someone better tell jazzz
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
How do you think the Greek people can achieve any kind of alternative to the ridiculous options being offered to them? Given that they will (if they "default") have no ability to supply themselves with the basic necessities of life?
To put in place some kind of guarantee that they will retain access to those necessities it seems to me they must have some deal with other states, i.e. by a state-to-state deal. I cannot see how it would be possible to reclaim some political autonomy for themselves without this kind of state level action, i.e. via a government policy, via a government.
It's a genuine question.
dennisr
the acceptable face
You made a similar point on the other thread. At the moment the greek state works on behalf of the interests of european big business interests.
The working and poor people of greece would be better off negotiating - with those outside 'interests' - on their own collective behalves rather than having a negotiator who is already working for the other team, surely?
Its all a bit academic at the moment though - it means either wrestling control of the state apparatus out of the hands of the present contollers or replacing that apparatus with something completely new - something the greek people democratically control themselves. That is up to them.
I guess the first the point they could then make is "we didn't cause this mess, we are not going to pay for it".
Getting to that point is the important bit at the moment though - the process itself - which would require more than "greeks alone" - is how the greek people would build the international support - that changes what they are negotiating and how they do so.
all a bit abstract though, no?
gosub
~#
Think a military coup more likely, as (a)they have form & (b) military pensions are among those being devalued. This would then give election facing Merkel a chance to boot Greece out of the EU
dennisr
the acceptable face
Agreed, I think that is a serious threat as well although I am not convinced it could be carried out immediately - it would need time (maybe I'm wrong). All depends on what moves the greek working class now make I guess
gosub
~#
"They also said they would stall the payments because they want the Athens government to have its political party leaders sign promises that, no matter what the voters say in the upcoming elections, they will enforce the austerity policies to which the present government has agreed."
from here. Sorry for Daiy Mail,but just given myself a massive blister accidently touching the grill element, not up to proper surfing to find more credible source. Still think that makes a coup the end game if voting fuckers out changes nothing
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Default doesn't mean have "no ability to supply themselves with the basic necessities of life". You're right, all deals must go through the state. There is no way around this. You've given some ideas on how best to negotiate this (iirc).
Edit:i will come back on this later.
gosub
~#
If you read The Trap, that was always part of the plan. Written in 94, even picks out Greece as the weak spot of the EUro. What they are supposed to do is get on their bikes Tebbit stylee and move to where the work is, thus helping to blur nationalites. Not sure who would be more upset with the whole of Greece turning up in Germany looking for work: The Germans, or the Turks already working there.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
I agree about the Greek state - or at least the current Greek political elite, it's clearly working for interests that are quite opposed to the interests of the Greek people, and very directly so rather than 'normal' indirect exploitation. But the ordinary Greek people don't - as far as I can see - have any way of meaningfully negotiating direct with those interests since the deals on the table are (a) accept out repayment terms = you are screwed, or (b) default = also you are screwed (via god knows what punitive fiscal/trade embargoes).
I can only see making a deal elsewhere with other state powers that might be quite happy to see a bit of the EU flake off.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
It might not but I think the emphasis is on the "might". Greece is not resource independent and will be a net importer of food and energy, if the Troika want, they can probably effectively make it impossible for Greece to import those necessities (how will they pay for them? - and their credit will, by definition, be zero after a default) unless some other source is in place that will basically have to supply those goods almost on a goodwill basis on the short term.
Dimitris
Well-Known Member
I am not sure if this has been posted before but I think this is an interesting article that shows some alternatives for Greece if Greece will default. Maybe this is not so chaotic as they want to present
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/greek-default-doesnt-need-be-chaotic-greece
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/greek-default-doesnt-need-be-chaotic-greece
hipipol
Peckham Wry
I suspect that Germany wants the Greeks out but doesn't want to be seen as the ones who forced it
Even with this vote there is no g'tee that Greece will get the cash it needs without further shiteating
Cant see any offers of Drachma forwards at the mo but give it a couple of weeks I suspect.......
Even with this vote there is no g'tee that Greece will get the cash it needs without further shiteating
Cant see any offers of Drachma forwards at the mo but give it a couple of weeks I suspect.......
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Just looking at the Wikipedia page on the "Economy of Greece" and found this unfathomable "fact":
Can this be true or did they conduct the survey in Papademos' office?
Unfortunately, the statement's referenced to a document in Greek:
http://www.publicissue.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/eurosurvey-09-2011.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece
Can this be true or did they conduct the survey in Papademos' office?
Unfortunately, the statement's referenced to a document in Greek:
http://www.publicissue.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/eurosurvey-09-2011.pdf
gosub
~#
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb76/eb76_en.htm page 65 of the annex. Up 15% . Stockholm syndrome
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Greece is not alone in facing short and long term meltdown, its just way ahead in taking its "austerity" medicine (poison) and thereby seeing its economy collapsing. Portugal and Spain can't be that far behind from what I've gleaned from the media on the current state of their economies. There is obviously the danger of the "man on horseback" riding in to "save the nation" in all three states -- they certainly ALL have repeat offender form. But equally the field is also open for very radical revolts/political developments of both Far Right and Left, obviously including a major realignment of the political forces in each country - to use that dreadful marketing expression .. its both an opportunity as well as a threat - certainly the first major opportunity for massive Leftward political change for generations. What did anyone THINK a systemic capitalist crisis would look like after all ? it was never going to be neat and tidy with a fully formed revolutionery mass workers movement all ready to take over was it ?
Zabo
Well-Known Member
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