Go on... rape her... she won't report it... [UniLad magazine article]

[ymu]

Finding the (undoubtedly interesting) discussion about how people collude in their own oppression a little distasteful immediately after a report about a woman who was jailed for falsely retracting rape claims in a situation where the courts and police did rather more 'colluding' in her oppression than she did. Particularly when one poster is doubting that social oppression is as serious as violent oppression when the article states that one of the judge's reasons for turning down her appeal was that she was not under threat of physical violence.

Responsibility for rape always gets turned back on the victim somehow or another, even by those who believe themselves to be well-meaning. "Just shut the fuck up and listen."

This point has now been made to lbj on three separate occasions through the course of this thread, and not just by me. He does not mean to be offensive, but he really fucking is. And he will never acknowledge it. An if I upset you 'apology' + you misunderstood me so I actually have nothing to apologise for or think about or anything new to learn about the world ever ... is the best you will get.

That's all.

 

[Edie]

Ladies does anyone here actually FEEL oppressed? Cos I don't This is bullshit, stop calling us bloody oppressed! We live in the UK in 2012, yes there might be a fair way to go before the playing field is level, but VP going round telling us we're all poor little oppressed victims is just fuckin annoying

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Finding the (undoubtedly interesting) discussion about how people collude in their own oppression a little distasteful immediately after a report about a woman who was jailed for falsely retracting rape claims in a situation where the courts and police did rather more 'colluding' in her oppression than she did. Particularly when one poster is doubting that social oppression is as serious as violent oppression when the article states that one of the judge's reasons for turning down her appeal was that she was not under threat of physical violence.

Responsibility for rape always gets turned back on the victim somehow or another, even by those who believe themselves to be well-meaning. "Just shut the fuck up and listen."

This point has now been made to lbj on three separate occasions through the course of this thread, and not just by me. He does not mean to be offensive, but he really fucking is. And he will never acknowledge it. An if I upset you 'apology' + you misunderstood me so I actually have nothing to apologise for or think about or anything new to learn about the world ever ... is the best you will get.

That's all.

I apologised to the thread in case I had put my foot in it. I didn't apologise to you specifically at all. I merely pointed out that you had misunderstood me. I knew this by the way you misrepresented what I had said back to me.

 

[kabbes]

Ladies does anyone here actually FEEL oppressed? Cos I don't This is bullshit, stop calling us bloody oppressed! We live in the UK in 2012, yes there might be a fair way to go before the playing field is level, but VP going round telling us we're all poor little oppressed victims is just fuckin annoying

Three things:

1) You don't have to be conscious of your oppression to be oppressed
2) We are all oppressed in some way or other, merely by the fact of the institutional structures that exist around us. The question is simply one of the degree of that oppression and to what extent it can be mitigated.
3) You go very quickly from a personal claim to to be unoppressed to a general claim that no women are oppressed.

Oppression can be subtle and insidious or it can be overt and threatening. You seem to be of the belief that only the latter is oppression. You couldn't be more wrong. The most effective oppression is always that which is invisible without close inspection. Particularly if the oppressed can be persuaded to participate in their own oppression.

 

[quimcunx]

Finding the (undoubtedly interesting) discussion about how people collude in their own oppression a little distasteful immediately after a report about a woman who was jailed for falsely retracting rape claims in a situation where the courts and police did rather more 'colluding' in her oppression than she did. Particularly when one poster is doubting that social oppression is as serious as violent oppression when the article states that one of the judge's reasons for turning down her appeal was that she was not under threat of physical violence.

Responsibility for rape always gets turned back on the victim somehow or another, even by those who believe themselves to be well-meaning. "Just shut the fuck up and listen."

This point has now been made to lbj on three separate occasions through the course of this thread, and not just by me. He does not mean to be offensive, but he really fucking is. And he will never acknowledge it. An if I upset you 'apology' + you misunderstood me so I actually have nothing to apologise for or think about or anything new to learn about the world ever ... is the best you will get.

That's all.

It just reads that you're in the huff that your post wasn't responded to. There are often different threads of conversation running through one thread. LBJ was responding to one. It wasn't yours. Can't see anything insensitive about it from here.

 

[purenarcotic]

Ladies does anyone here actually FEEL oppressed? Cos I don't This is bullshit, stop calling us bloody oppressed! We live in the UK in 2012, yes there might be a fair way to go before the playing field is level, but VP going round telling us we're all poor little oppressed victims is just fuckin annoying

The fact that we do not exist on a level playing field is surely proof enough that oppression on some level still occurs and is widely accepted without question.

I don't feel oppressed in the sense that I am terrified that should I not play up to gender stereotypes then I will be beaten to death or whatever, but I feel oppressed in the sense that the expectation to conform to these norms is still very strong, and if I don't conform, and question why I should conform, I am seen as a minority and an annoyance to do so.

 

[kabbes]

Women on average are paid 80% as much as men for doing the same job. They represent half the workforce and yet less than 10% of board members and less than 5% of CEOs.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg that is corporate oppression, let alone the great mass that is social oppression.

Ah yes -- remind a woman that she is a woman before she does a maths test and her performance typically drops by 5%. How's that for a textbook example of institutional, heavily internalised oppression?

 

[ddraig]

*deleted

sorry!

 

[stethoscope]

Ladies does anyone here actually FEEL oppressed? Cos I don't This is bullshit, stop calling us bloody oppressed! We live in the UK in 2012, yes there might be a fair way to go before the playing field is level, but VP going round telling us we're all poor little oppressed victims is just fuckin annoying

It's not about you, or i, as individuals, it's about how women are oppressed as a sex in society (and across societies, cultures). VP isn't saying 'we're all poor little oppressed victims' at all, he's saying that women as a sex are, from a political analysis, oppressed against in relation to men.

 

[kabbes]

What I find frustrating, Edie, is that we have these conversations every three months or so. It typically ends with you appearing to have a revelation that these issues are more complicated than you had previous appreciated and agreeing that there is something there to be seriously considered.

Then in three months, you come out with the same stuff all over again, as if none of the previous conversations had ever happened.

 

[love detective]

as if none of the previous conversations had ever happened.

Should be a tagline for this site

 

[Blagsta]

What I find frustrating, Edie, is that we have these conversations every three months or so. It typically ends with you appearing to have a revelation that these issues are more complicated than you had previous appreciated and agreeing that there is something there to be seriously considered.

Then in three months, you come out with the same stuff all over again, as if none of the previous conversations had ever happened.

You missed out the flounce.

 

[Edie]

What I find frustrating, Edie, is that we have these conversations every three months or so. It typically ends with you appearing to have a revelation that these issues are more complicated than you had previous appreciated and agreeing that there is something there to be seriously considered.

Then in three months, you come out with the same stuff all over again, as if none of the previous conversations had ever happened.

Oppression is a big word. There are women in the world who really ARE oppressed. Who are not allowed to work, who are forced to cover themselves, who cannot leave the house without their husbands, who are stoned for having an affair. As far as I'm concerned, THAT is oppression.

What we have in this country, at least if you are white (Asian women get a shitter deal ime) is the remnants of sexism. A lot of income disparity comes from women taking career breaks to have and raise kids. Now, I'd like to see it made much easier for women to come back into the job market and earn as much as their male colleagues, but the fact is if you're working part time or haven't had as much experience as the man you are competing with, that aint gonna be the case. That is NOT oppression. To call that oppression is to downgrade the word.

kabbes, the views expressed on urban are (very) left wing, and they are rarely mine. Sometimes I can see the points being made, other times I just disagree *shrugs*

 

[stethoscope]

*bangs head against desk*

 

[ymu]

Does anyone have links to testimonies by transexuals at what an utter shock it was to find out how the other half got treated? Especially male to female. Loss of power and respect is a great deal more noticeable to the individual experiencing it than it is to those who have never known different.

 

[Edie]

You missed out the flounce.

Fuck off, I did not flounce. I took a fuckin break cos some of you nobs were winding me up and being disrespectful. I always intended to come back and I did.

 

[_angel_]

Women on average are paid 80% as much as men for doing the same job. They represent half the workforce and yet less than 10% of board members and less than 5% of CEOs.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg that is corporate oppression, let alone the great mass that is social oppression.

Ah yes -- remind a woman that she is a woman before she does a maths test and her performance typically drops by 5%. How's that for a textbook example of institutional, heavily internalised oppression?

Sorry, puzzled by this last bit? How do you "remind a woman she is a woman"? Eh?? Does anyone actually forget?

 

[stethoscope]

Does anyone have links to testimonies by transexuals at what an utter shock it was to find out how the other half got treated? Especially male to female. Loss of power and respect is a great deal more noticeable to the individual experiencing it than it is to those who have never known different.

Yes, it's something that both friends who are trans, and those I work with talk about all the time. The difference in how they are perceived in society, what they are expected to be like and how to behave, society placing all manner of assumptions and expectations of them because of their change of gender. I'm aware of plenty of cases where both direct and indirect discrimination has occured also.

Its one of those (unique?) positionings where trans people see and experience first hand how society relates to men and women differently as genders.


None of which was applied to them when they were living as men.

 

[ddraig]

are you allowed to do what you want when you want Edie?

 

[ymu]

Oppression is a big word. There are women in the world who really ARE oppressed. Who are not allowed to work, who are forced to cover themselves, who cannot leave the house without their husbands, who are stoned for having an affair. As far as I'm concerned, THAT is oppression.

What we have in this country, at least if you are white (Asian women get a shitter deal ime) is the remnants of sexism. A lot of income disparity comes from women taking career breaks to have and raise kids. Now, I'd like to see it made much easier for women to come back into the job market and earn as much as their male colleagues, but the fact is if you're working part time or haven't had as much experience as the man you are competing with, that aint gonna be the case. That is NOT oppression. To call that oppression is to downgrade the word.

kabbes, the views expressed on urban are (very) left wing, and they are rarely mine. Sometimes I can see the points being made, other times I just disagree *shrugs*

We have women who are forced to work for lower wages than men because that is the only way to make ends meet, who are forced to waste time and money on make-up and clothes and totter around in ridiculous heels and revealing clothing too cold to really go out in, who are routinely accused of being responsible for any sexual attacks against them, may have their faces cut or acid thrown over them if they have an affair or even just end a relationship, and until this year spousal infidelity was a valid defence to murder - but only if it was a hot-blooded murder done in a momentary loss of control - you know, the kind of murder a vengeful husband can generally pull off a lot more easily than his probably less physically powerful wife.

Yeah, them Muslims are just bloody terrible, the way they treat women, eh?

 

[Edie]

Yes, it's something that both friends who are trans, and those I work with talk about all the time. The difference in how they are perceived in society, what they are expected to be like and how to behave, others placing all manner of assumptions and expectations of them because of their change of gender. Know plenty of cases where both direct and indirect discrimination has occured also.

None of which was applied to them when they were living as men.

But surely men are under just as many assumptions? That they are strong, capable, breadwinners, fighters, unemotional, career driven, pissheads, brave etc etc. Are THEY oppressed?

 

[Edie]

are you allowed to do what you want when you want Edie?

Can you fuck off please. We are talking about society.

 

[Blagsta]

Fuck off, I did not flounce. I took a fuckin break cos some of you nobs were winding me up and being disrespectful. I always intended to come back and I did.

Kabbes is right though. It gets a bit tedious going over the same arguments again and again.

 

[stethoscope]

But surely men are under just as many assumptions? That they are strong, capable, breadwinners, fighters, unemotional, career driven, pissheads, brave etc etc. Are THEY oppressed?

In some ways men are oppressed - race, class, sexuality.

Men are certainly negatively impacted by expectations and norms placed onto them because of their gender, but they are not oppressed against as a gender when analysing the relative power relation between men and women.

You've got to take this out of the context of the individual. For example, a woman can have a wield power over a man in a particular relationship, of course many women certainly have more power than men (because of class, race, etc). That doesn't change the fact that in society from a political analysis, women are oppressed as a gender, and men aren't.

 

[ddraig]

Can you fuck off please. We are talking about society.

you claimed women in this country aren't oppressed and that you don't feel you are.
apologies if my post points out the stark contradiction with that and your previous postings

 

[Agent Sparrow]

But surely men are under just as many assumptions? That they are strong, capable, breadwinners, fighters, unemotional, career driven, pissheads, brave etc etc. Are THEY oppressed?

There are undoubtedly gendered pressures on men, but in addition to the specific female oppressions listed by ymu, whenever this comparison thing comes up I wonder whether the pressures on men, the social stereotypes, are a bit more "active", i.e. men are expected to be individually and actively in control of their own destiny. Where with women, the pressures and expectations are more passive and other people focused. On the level of a whole gender, that leads to greater oppression in one direction compared to the other.

Hopefully that makes sense...

 

[kabbes]

Sorry, puzzled by this last bit? How do you "remind a woman she is a woman"? Eh?? Does anyone actually forget?

You include a box on the front of the test that asks the person taking it to fill out their sex.

Merely doing this drops the average female result on a maths test by 5%.

 

[Edie]

Kabbes is right though. It gets a bit tedious going over the same arguments again and again.

Have you EVER noticed that urban75 is like a very small in-club where there is incredibly little variety of political opinion? There seems to be this assumption that the rest of right-minded folk in this country all hold far-left views like those expressed here. When in fact the reality is that almost NO ONE holds far left views out there, I don't know a single person (other than 2 people who also post here who I know irl) who is far-left.

Your all living in a bubble, but instead of wanting to discuss the views you hold, or look at it from a different angle, if anyone comes along and goes wtf or sees shit from a pov that isn't pretty far commie-left, they are told they are talking shit and pretty much slagged off straight away. Personally I'd like to see far more different views on here, more right wing views or just 'centre' views, so that stuff can be discussed and the whole debate can be seen.

 

[stethoscope]

It's not some sort of urban bubble Eids, this sort of analysis (oppressed/oppressor and power relations) is commonly accepted across the majority of political and social science discourse. And because its based in reality - the relations of man/women, straight/gay, working class/middle class, white/black, etc.

 

[ddraig]

what has being against oppression and sexism got to do with being left wing??
why is it radical and loony and far fetched and in a bubble to want equality??
who benefits from keeping some people unequal?

why is it ok to go about asian women being abused but not about white women??
come on!