A very interesting post emanymton, but I wonder if you should delete it - there might be too much info, especially with the breakdown of the jury and mention of some of the victim's actions.
Go on... rape her... she won't report it... [UniLad magazine article]
- Thread starter LiamO
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purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Must be very hard to secure convictions if it needs to be proved "beyond reasonable doubt" - you'd need some criterion of secure objective evidence beyond the simply testimony of the plaintiff? And since there won't normally be witnesses you're talking medical evidence or some kind of behavioural evidence - but if there are no typical post-rape behaviours then what would this be?
No wonder rape victims are deterred from reporting it, given the low prospect of a conviction and the traumatic nature of giving evidence
No wonder rape victims are deterred from reporting it, given the low prospect of a conviction and the traumatic nature of giving evidence
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Many rape cases come down to 'he said she said' and without physical evidence that's all there is. If the CPS/fiscal declines to prosecute because of the lack of evidence, that's it.Must be very hard to secure convictions if it needs to be proved "beyond reasonable doubt" - you'd need some criterion of secure objective evidence beyond the simply testimony of the plaintiff? And since there won't normally be witnesses you're talking medical evidence or some kind of behavioural evidence - but if there are no typical post-rape behaviours then what would this be?
No wonder rape victims are deterred from reporting it, given the low prospect of a conviction and the traumatic nature of giving evidence
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Well, there are women in the past who have made false rape claims vexatiously. So the simple fact of making the accusation can't be enough? Would you want to change the burden of proof so the accused has to show that he *didn't* do it? I'm not sure that that's the way to go either - how could you *prove* that you'd had consensual sex?
Maybe previous convictions for sexual assault should be declared to juries. But it's all a bit of a minefield.
Maybe previous convictions for sexual assault should be declared to juries. But it's all a bit of a minefield.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Bear in mind how de-politicised the NUS has become since then, then add in the factionalism that identity politics caused to campus solidarities, and you can pretty much track the "clueing down".
Don't forget that the NUS was constantly under attack from the Thatcher government, which wanted all SU's to disaffiliate from the national body. After 1992, the NUS was a pale shadow of its former self. My current SU is absolutely hopeless.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Yes it's what I would call "gross masculinity"precisely because it lacks any positive aspects and it's mediated by lad's mags like Loaded and Nuts.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
Going back to the 'rape jokes' issue and wether this is indicative of unedrlying mysogyny.
if you look at any situation where racism, homophobia etc are given even the smallest breathing space the bigots rush in to fill their boots.
Look at the public comments on newpapare sights after the dale farm farago - 'these filthy pikies with their bollocks about ethnic cleansing and racism! They should be wiped out!' etc etc etc - absolulte open season. Give these cunts an inch ...
This - to me - is whats going on with rape jokes and this uni-lad shit. It opens up a space where all that festering hatred and resentment towards women can spew out under the cover of 'irony'. Again - the face book comments would seem to very much bear that out. As other have pointed out - rape is a tool of power and control and 'jokes' about the issue seem very much a way of putting them uppity bitches back in their place.
On another note - I think this thread has been useful in highlighting just how much sexual violence - and the threat of sexual violence - oppresses women. And that this oppression is so insidious and internalised its almost invisible. This is somehting I have learnt over the years from being close to women who have suffered from sexual violence and who have worked with victims . But this oppression is an issue that many many men have no understadning of and that women accept as a normal state of affairs.
So for all the advances for women in terms of equal pay, education and legal rights - a huge iceberg of unversal and consistant oppression goes virtually unchallenged. Fuck 'glass ceilings' and women in the boardroom - this is the battle the should be being fought.
But how? Trying to improve conviction rates seems to get virtually nowhere and tinlering with the legal system is horrendourouly complex and could have all sorts of negative unintentded consequences.
The focus should be education - not for women who already all too aware what they are facing - but education aimed at men - and young men in particular. The issue need to dragged out into the open rather then swept under the carpet as it is now.
if you look at any situation where racism, homophobia etc are given even the smallest breathing space the bigots rush in to fill their boots.
Look at the public comments on newpapare sights after the dale farm farago - 'these filthy pikies with their bollocks about ethnic cleansing and racism! They should be wiped out!' etc etc etc - absolulte open season. Give these cunts an inch ...
This - to me - is whats going on with rape jokes and this uni-lad shit. It opens up a space where all that festering hatred and resentment towards women can spew out under the cover of 'irony'. Again - the face book comments would seem to very much bear that out. As other have pointed out - rape is a tool of power and control and 'jokes' about the issue seem very much a way of putting them uppity bitches back in their place.
On another note - I think this thread has been useful in highlighting just how much sexual violence - and the threat of sexual violence - oppresses women. And that this oppression is so insidious and internalised its almost invisible. This is somehting I have learnt over the years from being close to women who have suffered from sexual violence and who have worked with victims . But this oppression is an issue that many many men have no understadning of and that women accept as a normal state of affairs.
So for all the advances for women in terms of equal pay, education and legal rights - a huge iceberg of unversal and consistant oppression goes virtually unchallenged. Fuck 'glass ceilings' and women in the boardroom - this is the battle the should be being fought.
But how? Trying to improve conviction rates seems to get virtually nowhere and tinlering with the legal system is horrendourouly complex and could have all sorts of negative unintentded consequences.
The focus should be education - not for women who already all too aware what they are facing - but education aimed at men - and young men in particular. The issue need to dragged out into the open rather then swept under the carpet as it is now.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
I have nothing but contempt for anybody who makes a false accusation of rape. It makes it so much harder for other women to report genuine attacks as well as dragging an innocent man through an unneccessary trial.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Great post Kaka Tim, and I think you've hit the nail on the head with who to educate.
After all, is the general population educated not to become a murder victim? No. Rape and sexual assaults against women remain the only crimes where it's seen as the victim's fault, not the perpetrator's.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Well said and I would also like to add that jokes, whether they be about rape or race, often contain a good deal of verbal violence.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Let's be under no illusions about the prevalence of this, though - proven cases are a less than one percent of all prosecuted cases. Even if you took a wild punt and said "real cases might be ten times that, you'd still be (on a wild flight of hyperbole) talking about less than 10% of all complaints.
Well, that's a fairly fraught issue. At the moment it's often incumbent on the complainant to prove that they didn't "consent" to sex, and for some juries, consent can be seen in non-resistance. If a woman can be damned as having consented to sex because she didn't violently repulse her attacker, in effect because she may have "frozen" with shock, what does that say about the current burden of proof?
They already can be, at judicial discretion.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
I think in many people's minds, non-consent is equated to force, which for example in date rape cases or those where a large amount of alcohol has been involved, may not have been used. Until the focus is removed from the victim's bahaviour in rape cases, this meshing of these two things (which are in fact separate) will still happen.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Which effectively means that any movement away from a farcical model that equates non-resistance with consent will be very slow, and indeed very painful for any women subjected to that model.
Nah.
Your not seriously gonna tell me that we're all sexually oppressed as women are you? That's just... bullshit. No offence. Women play this game as much as men, and we're not your victims lulz. Get yourself down Calls Lane and watch how it works
It's men who are the desperate ones, men who can't get a shag and end up lonely and women who work the bar and men to there advantage. I'm not scared of men just cos they have cocks ffs it's fists you have to watch.
stuff_it
Too skool for cool
Ironically enough I had far more injuries from being drugged and raped than I did from fighting off an attacker when sober-ish....
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
I think we all accept that rape is a difficult crime to prosecute and that it always will be. I think most women would be happy to know that a complaint will be taken seriously, will be investigated properly, and that her past sexual history, wardrobe or use of intoxicating substances will never be used to claim that she brought it on herself.
Abstract philosophising about the insoluble problems only serves to distract from the very real inadequacies of the system as it exists now. It's not good enough and there's no excuse for the ways in which it is not good enough.
Meltingpot
Living in our pools we soon forget about the sea
Maybe specially trained prosecutors for rape cases would help. I read an article in the Guardian a while back in which they described one in the US who gets a much higher conviction rate (around 80%) than prosecutors in rape cases do over here - because she's skilled at getting to the truth and behind all the excuses, evasions, rationalisations etc. that rapists will use after the event. I wish I had a link to the article.
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
They did one on DV as well. They were actually made by the groups of kids themselves; like they created the concept and help direct etc, which I think is encouraging as hopefully it'll really resonate with that age group.
Nah.
Your not seriously gonna tell me that we're all sexually oppressed as women are you? That's just... bullshit. No offence. Women play this game as much as men, and we're not your victims lulz. Get yourself down Calls Lane and watch how it works
I'm not scared of men just cos they have cocks ffs it's fists you have to watch.
Oppressed not repressed.
Nah I know the difference.Oppressed not repressed.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
http://www.endviolenceagainstwomen....nt_world_is_possible_report_email_version.pdf
50% of boys think rape or domestic violence are ok? Really?
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
TLDR
All about what those circumstances are though. I'd imagine many male urbanites would think it's ok to hit a women, if for example she was coming at with a knife and you feared for you life.
All about what those circumstances are though. I'd imagine many male urbanites would think it's ok to hit a women, if for example she was coming at with a knife and you feared for you life.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
Well quite, mixing the two up is a bit silly really.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
no.
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