Gezi Park - Istanbul

[sihhi]

posted on CIF

It's not a huge confederation of trade unions, it's an eroded and weakened confederation representing civil servants only - if you want to get a permanent contract you have to be a member of KAMU-SEN. It's already been on strike for 2 days, means little.

The movement

Gazi has tried a strategy of escape from the streets onto the motorway, it will again be stopped:-

There's extreme levels of tear gas at hand and well-masked police, protestors seem to have few/no masks.

 

[sihhi]

Taksim Square itself has a police guard around the north side - and those massive Turkey flags and Ataturk poster is still there:

 

[teqniq]

Turkish protestors say PM to respect court ruling on Istanbul park

 

[sihhi]

"We want to know what the population of Istanbul thinks, its decision is very important for us," he added.

Referendum is a pull out the rug to have free reign for the AKP victory rallies.
Once again state public transport is being bent to serve AKP interests with new ferry services for the Kazlicesme rally.


Pretty open smear there:

The fight to save the park's 600 trees prompted a brutal police crackdown two weeks ago, provoking nationwide protests against Erdogan and his Islamic-rooted government, which critics see as increasingly authoritarian.

Four people have died in the nationwide unrest so far and some 5,000 demonstrators, most of whom are young and middle-class, have been injured.

The four people who have died are all workers, one not involved but a cleaner/caretaker. One unemployed working-class in Hatay, one a factory worker in Ankara, one a workshop worker in Istanbul. Yet "middle class" is how it is described. Al Arabiya. Unsurprising.

Official doctors association gives 7,479 injured including removed spleens from the effect of that pressurised weird poisonous substance but it only covers some areas. In total at least 10,000 have received some kind of treatment for police injuries.

Health Ministry is at the start of any inquiry to give them the start for legal proceedings against the doctors' association:

They want details of the names and homes of protestors part of illegal demonstrations that their members have treated and/or given medicine to.

 

[elbows]

I did try to look into the class background of those killed but I found it a bit tricky since I have to rely on english-language sources. At least one of them was described as a student so I don't know if thats wrong or what his background was.

As for spleen removal, the spleen can rupture after violent blows to the body so I can't really use that stuff on its own as evidence of some unknown malicious chemical weapon being used.

 

[sihhi]

As for spleen removal, the spleen can rupture after violent blows to the body so I can't really use that stuff on its own as evidence of some unknown malicious chemical weapon being used.

There was an undisclosed chemical used as part of pressurised water from "anti-riot vehicles" - described as far worse than the coloured stuff on May Day - on 2nd and 3rd June in Istanbul, Ankara, Hatay. Similar I believe effects in Kurdish areas back in 2011-2012 part of the hunger strike rallies.

 

[elbows]

But that doesn't really tell us anything about the reality of those substances. I have a special interest in the nature of rumours during protests, uprisings and state clamp-downs. For example the way that fear of the unknown can be used to try to reestablish a psychological state which discourages the masses from joining in, re-establishing a climate of fear that the state relies on. Or, on the other side, the way such things can be used as propaganda to accuse the state of an even greater atrocity.

In any case it I consider it important to study these things, and it is not meant as a personal attack or criticism if I draw attention to the unsubstantiated nature of rumours. If there is one thing I learnt as a result of watching several arab spring uprisings from the comfort and safety of my chair a long way away from the action, its about this stuff, that I cannot take it at face value and that I have the luxury of not having to leap to worst case assumptions.

Likewise another phenomenon that Turkey has in common with events in Egypt is the continual ebb and flow of rumours that the police are about to make an all out assault on the square. Such fears are reasonable and sometimes come true, but they take on a life of their own and are something that can at different times play into the hands of either side. Here on u75 at least one poster gained something of a reputation for confidently proclaiming that everyone in Tahrir square was about to be crushed imminently by the state, but more often than not that did not happen. It is a tricky business to get the balance right between vigilance, precaution and preparation, and playing into the hands of those who seek to reestablish a climate of fear in order to gain order.

 

[sihhi]

But that doesn't really tell us anything about the reality of those substances. I have a special interest in the nature of rumours during protests, uprisings and state clamp-downs. For example the way that fear of the unknown can be used to try to reestablish a psychological state which discourages the masses from joining in, re-establishing a climate of fear that the state relies on. Or, on the other side, the way such things can be used as propaganda to accuse the state of an even greater atrocity.

Like I explained upthread - at the start it was pro-government putting out that it was agent orange to make the protestors out as liars and atrocity propagandists.
However it causes more harm than normal pressurised water - I have no idea if it was used in Egypt or why that's relevant. Why should testimony from both Kurdish and non-Kurdish sources be disbelieved?

Let's be clear who is doing the atrocity propagandising in this situation - the hijabed daughter-in-law of an AKP council leader in Istanbul starting swearing at a group of male football supporter protestors (Carsi) in Kabatas, Besiktas waiting behind a line of other poeple. They told her to clear off and leave them alone and threatened to sort her out as the line ahead was under attack from the police. This is now turned into protestors beat up a defenceless woman because of her hijab and they swear at religious people, they want to destroy freedom of religion. Several ministers have refered to it. It's become a twitter trend and a campaign slogan. Propaganda. Their side.

 

[elbows]

I use the word propaganda in its traditional sense. It is not a judgement about whether something is true or not, and I rarely see situations where only one side makes use of propaganda. However there are many situations where the propaganda of one side may be far less truthful, and far more vulgar, than that of the other.

If I wish to escape a loop of propaganda and counter-propaganda then I have to apply a little cynicism towards the idea that all of the propaganda generated by the non-state side that turns out not to be true, e.g. agent orange, is necessarily state propaganda dressed up as opposition propaganda in order to discredit the opposition. I can support a side without having to see them as perfect, and while some of their apparent flaws may turn out to be myths encouraged by the state, its unlikely all are. Plus the fact that the state may encourage the opposition to believe bullsshit that encourages fear, again e.g. agent orange, is precisely the reason I am hesitant to take all rumours at face value in the first place.

 

[sihhi]

If I wish to escape a loop of propaganda and counter-propaganda then I have to apply a little cynicism towards the idea that all of the propaganda generated by the non-state side that turns out not to be true, e.g. agent orange, is necessarily state propaganda dressed up as opposition propaganda in order to discredit the opposition.

I saw it come from government supporters spreading it on social media, then got picked up by clueless protestor-supporters who don't know that agent orange is a defoliant. Then official government spokespeople say these people are creating trouble by talking of agent orange.

There's lots of propaganda - Zaman newspaper put out in 2011 after the riots in London that a march in Hackney against reprisals and raids became an Ocalan rally in favour of looters - only their Turkish edition naturally so it's not seen in the West. As dozens of smaller examples of distorted bits and pieces aren't put up on websites but degrade non-Sunnis in their cheap print editions.

Here's something else that's used as propaganda - PM meeting with a handpicked pliant liberal crowd of sellouts as discussions with protestors.

Notice also the woman in the headscarf is the PM's daughter Sumeyye sitting in on official government business not elected just a crony.

 

[phildwyer]

There is no real trouble for middle-class Turks and is unlikely to ever be.

I don't know how you can be so certaın, there certaınly has been trouble for them ın the past... and also ın analogous sıtuatıons ın neıghborıng countrıes...

 

[sihhi]

I don't know how you can be so certaın, there certaınly has been trouble for them ın the past... and also ın analogous sıtuatıons ın neıghborıng countrıes...

I can't remember what that was in the context of but if middle-class people do nothing nothing will happen to them, if, say, the doctors go out and assist protestors then they will be investigated. That's what the phone communication I've received indicates to me I could be wrong.

 

[mack]

Kicking off again in the park

http://www.livestation.com/reuters

 

[miss direct]

Live feed is scary....http://www.dha.com.tr/dhayayin-2/

 

[miss direct]

This is kicking off all over the city tonight. Thankfully I'm at home and I live far away from the centre to not be affected, but I've heard from friends who live closer to town that tear gas is being fired in residential streets and metro stations. Some of the metro stations have been closed, roads have been blocked, ferries have been cancelled. Lots of people are making their way towards Taksim from the Asian side of the city.

 

[mack]

Seems to be countrywide protests again.

 

[Treacle Toes]

00.23: [Istanbul] Gazi protesters on their way to Taksim have joined up with those from Nurtepe

 

[miss direct]

Last night was the worst and most violent night so far. Lack of media. Today it will continue.
I'm leaving the country today, if I can get to the airport that is. I hope when I'm back in two weeks things will be a bit calmer.

 

[Treacle Toes]

So apparently the chemicals put into the water cannons with the water are not harmful.

The burns/skin reactions are being caused by the water, not the chemicals deliberately put into the water.

These peaople are merely allegic to water, not the chemicals put into the water.

 

[phildwyer]

Lots of people are making their way towards Taksim from the Asian side of the city.

Yes, there was a march from Kadıkoy set off about 10pm. No ıdea what happened to ıt. There wıll be trouble tonıght for sure... Erdogan's speech yesterday was ınflammatory, the one today wıll doubtless be the same...

 

[Treacle Toes]

#Turkey live: Happening right now!: People inside Cevahir shopping mall in Sisli protesting the police

 

[brogdale]

View attachment 33732

So apparently the chemicals put into the water cannons with the water are not harmful.

The burns/skin reactions are being caused by the water, not the chemicals deliberately put into the water.

These peaople are merely allegic to water, not the chemicals put into the water.

These chemical weapons are obviously not 'a red line that has been crossed'.

 

[Callie]

View attachment 33732

So apparently the chemicals put into the water cannons with the water are not harmful.

The burns/skin reactions are being caused by the water, not the chemicals deliberately put into the water.

These peaople are merely allegic to water, not the chemicals put into the water.

I think water smacking people at high power will hurt and cause bruising and redness. The water cannons are exactly gentle. No doubt though that even simple dye in the water could be harmful to some.

Presumably someone somewhere can get a sample of the water, no idea where youd get it tested though?

eta: that should read arent exactly gentle

 

[CyberRose]

View attachment 33732

So apparently the chemicals put into the water cannons with the water are not harmful.

The burns/skin reactions are being caused by the water, not the chemicals deliberately put into the water.

These peaople are merely allegic to water, not the chemicals put into the water.

Just playing devil's advocate as I've no way of knowing either way but shouldn't that have happened to everyone sprayed and also the person with the burnt legs has burns on their foot as well (so wouldn't have been wearing shoes at the protest)

 

[Treacle Toes]

What chemicals are they putting in the water?
Why does the water need chemicals in it?
Does adding chemicals increase the velocity of the water from the cannons?
If not, WHAT is the reason chemicals are being added?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Just playing devil's advocate as I've no way of knowing either way but shouldn't that have happened to everyone sprayed and also the person with the burnt legs has burns on their foot as well (so wouldn't have been wearing shoes at the protest)

Sandals? Flipflops? Canvas or other material shoes?

Some people are allegic to certain things, others are not?

 

[Callie]

What chemicals are they putting in the water?
Why does the water need chemicals in it?
Does adding chemicals increase the velocity of the water from the cannons?
If not, WHAT is the reason chemicals are being added?

why the rolleyes?

 

[Treacle Toes]

why the rolleyes?

Were not aimed at you, I am frustrated and angry at the situation.

 

[TitanSound]

Live news stream here.

http://www.ecanlitvizle.com/halk-tv-izle/

 

[TitanSound]

Gf is telling me Police are tear gassing at will. They were just getting a drink at a cafe and loads of canisters started coming towards them. They had to run home and get their masks.