Yes but we presume he spoke with Erdogan`s blessing. And they may have to use the army. Why do you think the police have won? They certainly don`t control the streets, which is something of a failing in a police force I`d say.
Gezi Park - Istanbul
- Thread starter TitanSound
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Yes but we presume he spoke with Erdogan`s blessing. And they may have to use the army. Why do you think the police have won? They certainly don`t control the streets, which is something of a failing in a police force I`d say.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Seriously, this isn`t the thread for it. Leave it.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
This bit is all a covering up pretty dishonest from VICE:
The issue was these kind of ultra-nationalist Carsi banners:
I believe it was settled by people being threatened with physical violence if they cared on bringing on these kinds of banners. But those currents are still there in the Carsi collective, large parts of it are anti-Kurdish autonomy.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Seriously leave it yourself. Because I don't take orders or suggestions from you.by continuing in this vein you're prolonging this
Go away you stupid twat. People are being beaten up, people are dying. Fuck off twatboy.
FFS grow up, the pair of you. There are far more important, and worse, things going on than your squabbling.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Because they are raiding and arresting the core of the protestors without response.
Demonstrating in your own territory is one thing entering central public space or an AKP territory is another. As is actually trying to produce good things for people against the will of the government. Labour protest has been very limited just three days of strike action - whilst the stuff just goes on. Yesterday, there was an explosion in a chemical plant in Mugla that killed 7 workers and injured others. But few are able to stop work to demand.
One of the interesting things about the last 5 years is that whilst growth has been very good compared to Europe, the number of injuries and accidents in non-mining sector has also stayed high.
More generally I've got a sense of an inevitability of defeat - there's no sense of 'we are going to release those arrested' and persuade people that we are right.
Media has been rapidly divorcing social goals of the anti-gentrification protest with the issue of green space. Already the Park has seen an incredible transformation of new planting. Inevitably this will be played to score a victory as the park whilst protestors were there will be contrasted with the improved AKP version.
There are more ways to win this than by fighting in the streets.
Turkey`s prosperity is very recent and very shallow. It won`t take much more of this to shake "investor confidence" and lose the investment-grade credit rating, and then suddenly all Tayyip`s new friends find somewhere else they urgently need to be when he calls. And the army is an unknown factor too--no-one knows exactly where their loyalties lie at the moment, but we can be quite sure they`re divided.
This isn`t over by a long shot. I plan to do my bit to make sure of that.
I was quite impressed by the silent man protest today (at least as R4 described it this morning). One man stood motionless and silent, he was gradually joined by others (who didn't know him) and they did the same. Not for a few minutes, but for hours. Then they left.
The silent man was indirectly quoted as saying that because of the police's behaviour and that of the government, he felt this was the only way he could express his protest at all.
The silent man was indirectly quoted as saying that because of the police's behaviour and that of the government, he felt this was the only way he could express his protest at all.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
This was an odd one: on the south side of Taksim Sq open to people at night (but not the trade union protest earlier) a guy stands from 8pm to about 12pm. Police look through his pockets and bags, but don't arrest him because media are there to report on how silent the square is after the clearance earlier.
Then of course people follow him and do the same. Forming a loose, low density crowd at which point the police intervene and he stops the protest but five of his fellow standers are arrested (for standing silently in the public square without a single flag or slogan). Odd.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
You might be right phil, I'll point out Turkey has been significantly economically transformed in little over 10 years.
In the 1990s I recall very frequent near-constant blackouts, water cuts, very poorly maintained roads, impassable roads in winter.
Some of it is AKP's shift to encourage inward investment to the Anatolian region, some of it a peace dividend from the 1999 ceasefire, which lasted until 2005 and after that the guerrilla war was never the same not threatening economic targets as much, as trying to keep the pot boiling by attacking soldiers.
It's hard to decouple the effects of the two.
In the 1990s I recall very frequent near-constant blackouts, water cuts, very poorly maintained roads, impassable roads in winter.
Some of it is AKP's shift to encourage inward investment to the Anatolian region, some of it a peace dividend from the 1999 ceasefire, which lasted until 2005 and after that the guerrilla war was never the same not threatening economic targets as much, as trying to keep the pot boiling by attacking soldiers.
It's hard to decouple the effects of the two.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it's interesting how quickly something which was courageous becomes something to deride - stands become memes become yesterday's bravery rather more quickly these days as the 'next big image' turns up so rapidly. i wonder whether any lasting images from the events in turkey will stand the test of time like the burning monks or the woman with the scaffold pole at the poll tax riot.On the standing man, it has become a sort of middle-class copiable trend.
This photo of a disabled man doing it tonight has become something of a "meme".
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
The disabled man's protest is a genuine one - the original guy said it was because he felt powerless at the media, wanted to protest that 4 people were killed, but didn't to kill anyone else:
It has become this though.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i agree. i don't deny the genuine nature of their protest, but once the image is out there it takes on a short sad life of its own before it becomes, as you point out, another picture of something somewhat cute happening and is alienated from its original significance and fervourThe disabled man's protest is a genuine one - the original guy said it was because he felt powerless at the media, wanted to protest that 4 people were killed, but didn't to kill anyone else:
It has become this though.
miss direct
misfungled
I'm just popping on the thread to see what's going on as it's so hard to find out from the media! I only know from facebook and here while I'm out of the country.
On the way to the airport on Sunday the bus passed a convoy of 10 army trucks full of soldiers heading into town. That was pretty scary, even though one of them winked at me.
It does seem to be calming down a lot.
On the way to the airport on Sunday the bus passed a convoy of 10 army trucks full of soldiers heading into town. That was pretty scary, even though one of them winked at me.
It does seem to be calming down a lot.
Absolutely, that's why Erdogan is popular. From the secluarist point of view, it's come at an unacceptably high price--and they're not the ones reaping the benefits, which he directs straight to his supporters. Personally I think Istanbul should secede.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
is this a view which attracts much support among turks?
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
It's the first I've heard it - discussion is I believe centred around the Kurdish regions - autonomy at what level, to include defence and/or security how, is Dersim/Tunceli included etc.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
istanbul seceding probably only attracts any level of support from foreign academics with more time than is good for them on their hands
Smooth! The trouble is that as protesters become better at using tactics like that, the police will be more likely to add irritants of one kind or another to water cannons. Working out how to block or disable those early and more effectively needs to be the next step.
They've been doing that for ages.
I know, but it's the type of thing they'll be more likely to use more often and more heavily. Along with the rubber bullets.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
This is Mersin this evening - an attempted protest at the Mediterranean Games where the PM is opening the thing - tickets reserved for AKP supporters bussed in from regions 4 hours away to avoid the booing which is feared.
Pressurised water, gas bombs but also 'plastic marbles' fired.
Pressurised water, gas bombs but also 'plastic marbles' fired.
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