Gerry Adams exposed , his lies demolished at brothers rape trial

[8den]

The IRA did not deliberately target civilians, if they had the deathtoll would have been in the tens of thousands, obviously in thousands of operations target acquisition did not always go to plan. Don't the British call this collateral damage ?

Yes the IRA did deliberately attack civilians.

No they did not maximise ciivilian casualties in their civilian targets.

The IRA campaign was complex, Just because the IRA attacked a civlivan target (ie harrods) does not mean that they intented to inflict maximum civilian casualties with the bomb.

If you had a point you'd say that the IRA only targeted military or police targets, but then you'd have to ignore the litany of civilian targets the IRA targeted (pubs, shops, hotels). In these instances you'd have to say that "some" police/miitary use these establishments and the only......blah blah fucking blah, if you bomb pubs in like in Birmingham or Guilford you are targeting civilians. fuck off.

Whats next a IRA campaign for the exoneration of Bomber Harris after all he occasionally hit a Nazi and thats what he was aiming for?

 

[Kalfindin]

eh? where was the mandate in 1916?

Different circumstances, different times, you have to strategically move with the times. The mood of the momentum of the moment is not war. Armed struggle is cyclical.

 

[Pickman's model]

Different circumstances, different times, you have to strategically move with the times. The mood of the momentum of the moment is not war. Armed struggle is cyclical.

it's not bloody cyclical if you've done away with all your weapons, that's rather terminal for it.

 

[8den]

i know you can't come up with a cogent argument because you've been spouting crap for weeks on this thread. it would be nice if you made an effort - who knows, you might even come out with something worth reading. as it is the more you post the more your vacuity becomes clear. resorting to making up quotes saying i like raping children shows just how pitifully weak you are.

While your making up my quotes show just how manful and heterosexual you are?

You're the one reduced to creating fake quotes. Cunt.

Of all the times I went out with Saville he assured me the girls were at least 15

BTW No thoughts on j Pattersons' lies about Jerry Mc Cabes death?

 

[Kalfindin]

Yes the IRA did deliberately attack civilians.

No they did not maximise ciivilian casualties in their civilian targets.

The IRA campaign was complex, Just because the IRA attacked a civlivan target (ie harrods) does not mean that they intented to inflict maximum civilian casualties with the bomb.

If you had a point you'd say that the IRA only targeted military or police targets, but then you'd have to ignore the litany of civilian targets the IRA targeted (pubs, shops, hotels). In these instances you'd have to say that "some" police/miitary use these establishments and the only......blah blah fucking blah, if you bomb pubs in like in Birmingham or Guilford you are targeting civilians. fuck off.

Whats next a IRA campaign for the exoneration of Bomber Harris after all he occasionally hit a Nazi and thats what he was aiming for?

No the targets of Birmingham and Guildford were squaddies, that why they were chosen as targets, the fact civilians got killed was an unfortunate by product of the attacks. Bomber Harris deliberately targeted civilians so its a moot point.

The British deliberately bombed civilians in Dublin and Monahan with no warning bombs, if the IRA bombed civilians for being civilians I would have condemned them.

 

[Pickman's model]

You're the one reduced to creating fake quotes. Cunt.

you said something along the lines of 'i've not answered you because you're a cunt' - which i took to mean an admission you had not the wherewithal to put together a cogent argument. ONE quote - not quotes. you've made up quoteS purporting to be from me about abuse of children. can't you see the difference? can't you see that you've proved that of the two of us there's only one cunt and that's the one making up such quotes as

[quote="pickman's model'']
Of all the times I went out with Saville he assured me the girls were at least 15

 

[8den]

No the targets of Birmingham and Guildford were squaddies, that why they were chosen as targets,

No the targets of those bombs were pubs. Pubs that "squaddies" and civilians were at.

OH NO WAIT. DID THE IRA HAVE A SPECIAL SYSTEM THAT WOULD AVOID MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC AND BAR STAFF, BUT TARGET ONLY BRITISH SOLDIERS?

HOW DID IT FAIL!!!!!!!!!!

the fact civilians got killed was an unfortunate by product of the attacks. Bomber Harris deliberately targeted civilians so its a moot point.

Harris would have argued that his bombing campaign was designed to end the war and the civilian casualties was a regrettable target of that aim.

If the IRA only wanted to kill British soldiers in Guilford or Birmingham why were most of the casualties in these attacks civilians?

The British deliberately bombed civilians in Dublin and Monahan with no warning bombs, if the IRA bombed civilians for being civilians I would have condemned them.[/QUOTE]

Monahan?

 

[Kalfindin]

Both sides were cunts. IRA bombing of remembrance day celebration was what? A proportionate response?

It was an attack on a military parade and display. In wars just because the enemy has a day off, does not mean you don't stop attacking them. Did the French resistance not attack Nazis because they were having a day off and a parade surrounded by their flunkies ? Your logic is all wrong.

 

[8den]

you said something along the lines of 'i've not answered you because you're a cunt' - which i took to mean an admission you had not the wherewithal to put together a cogent argument. ONE quote - not quotes. you've made up quoteS purporting to be from me about abuse of children. can't you see the difference? can't you see that you've proved that of the two of us there's only one cunt and that's the one making up such quotes as

No I've merely decided that you're a contrary fucker who's not worth answering.

You then made up quotes about me and I've answered in kind.

So this one time me and Rolf were ass deep in Elm house, and....

 

[Kalfindin]

No the targets of those bombs were pubs. Pubs that "squaddies" and civilians were at.

OH NO WAIT. DID THE IRA HAVE A SPECIAL SYSTEM THAT WOULD AVOID MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC AND BAR STAFF, BUT TARGET ONLY BRITISH SOLDIERS?

HOW DID IT FAIL!!!!!!!!!!



Harris would have argued that his bombing campaign was designed to end the war and the civilian casualties was a regrettable target of that aim.

If the IRA only wanted to kill British soldiers in Guilford or Birmingham why were most of the casualties in these attacks civilians?

The British deliberately bombed civilians in Dublin and Monahan with no warning bombs, if the IRA bombed civilians for being civilians I would have condemned them.

Monahan?[/QUOTE]


Thin ice my friend, you are from a country that has murdered 25 million around the world, you have no moral right to lecture.

The IRA were a peoples army, the fact British army collaborators and groupies got killed in those attacks is unfortunate but a sad fact of war. At that time the British army was murdering Irish children in the streets, a message had to be sent that such attacks would be met with a reprisals.

 

[Pickman's model]

No I've merely decided that you're a contrary fucker who's not worth answering.

You then made up quotes about me and I've answered in kind.

[Quote="Pickman's model']So this one time me and Rolf were ass deep in Elm house, and....

[/QUOTE]what you've shown is that you can't construct an argument which bears examination, and that you're most at home making up quotes about raping children. this hardly displays you in the best light, politically or morally. and your constant harping on about the deliberate targeting of civilians when there's considerable evidence to the contrary using the same tired examples which have been exploded - no pun intended - some pages ago shows you don't have much knowledge of the campaign. the monaghan bomb? have you seriously not heard of that?

 

[Pickman's model]

.

 

[8den]

It was an attack on a military parade and display. In wars just because the enemy has a day off, does not mean you don't stop attacking them. Did the French resistance not attack Nazis because they were having a day off and a parade surrounded by their flunkies ? Your logic is all wrong.

The IRA apologised for the attack. Wait are you calling the 11 civilians murdered by the IRA, Nazis? Really?

Please explain how Bertha Armstrong, Wesley Armstrong, Samuel Gault, Nessie Johnston, Kitchener Johnston, John Megaw, Nessie Mullan, William Mullan, Alberta Quinton, and Marie Wilson were Nazis? Did they turn over their neighbours to concentration camps? Force interrogations? Watch as their neighbours endured collective punishments?

 

[sleaterkinney]

What about those of us who don't live there because of the current model, what about our families we are sending half out wages home too, the model sure as fuck isn't workin for them. What about our brothers who are sitting a home twiddling their fuckin thumbs because of the model, and the amount if people topping themselves...in every local paper , every week, because of the model.., a united Ireland will solve nothing in itself but it is the first step.

It would be a massive step backwards, unless you think your brother would find work with the massive military buildup needed to keep law and order.

 

[Kalfindin]

The IRA apologised for the attack. Wait are you calling the 11 civilians murdered by the IRA, Nazis? Really?

Please explain how Bertha Armstrong, Wesley Armstrong, Samuel Gault, Nessie Johnston, Kitchener Johnston, John Megaw, Nessie Mullan, William Mullan, Alberta Quinton, and Marie Wilson were Nazis? Did they turn over their neighbours to concentration camps? Force interrogations? Watch as their neighbours endured collective punishments?

You have the mind of a Sun Reader. Where did I say the civilians were Nazis ? I gave an analogy of the French resistance attacking the Nazis.

Long Kesh was indeed a concentration camp, go and read some history.

 

[sleaterkinney]

The IRA killed half as many civilians as they did security forces so if they weren't targeting them they were doing a bad job.

 

[8den]

what you've shown is that you can't construct an argument which bears examination, and that you're most at home making up quotes about raping children. this hardly displays you in the best light, politically or morally.

While your making up quotes about me elevates you to moral high ground that requires the aid of sherpas to reach.

Face it Pickman's without your double standards you'd have no standards.

and your constant harping on about the deliberate targeting of civilians when there's considerable evidence to the contrary using the same tired examples which have been exploded - no pun intended - some pages ago shows you don't have much knowledge of the campaign.

Fuck off. The entire argument aganist the IRA deliberate targetting of civilians is the misnomer that "if the IRA were targetting civilians the deathtoil would be higher" as if the argument that the IRA wouldn't be nuanced enough to target civilians, with the knowledge that limited damage would promote the cause but mass casualties would remove any international sympathy.

How anyone can try and argue that the IRA never targeted civilians (which least we remember was the spur of this massive tangent) when clearly they did, and instead we wander into a cul de sac where we seem to laude the IRA for not trying to maximise civilian causlities as if to say, "ho ray they planted bombs in pubs in guilford and birmingham put they were trying to kill the handful of squaddies that were sometimes in these pubs so thats alright then.

 

[8den]

You have the mind of a Sun Reader. Where did I say the civilians were Nazis ? I gave an analogy of the French resistance attacking the Nazis.

Yes and I used your nazi analogy correctly

Did the French resistance not attack Nazis because they were having a day off and a parade surrounded by their flunkies ?

You directly compared the victims of the Enniskillen bombings as Nazi flunkies.

Long Kesh was indeed a concentration camp, go and read some history.

Yeah I have read "some history" which is why I won't compare the conditions at Long Kesh (no matter how reprehensible) as akin to a Nazi concentration camp.

 

[Kalfindin]

Yes and I used your nazi analogy correctly


You directly compared the victims of the Enniskillen bombings as Nazi flunkies.




Yeah I have read "some history" which is why I won't compare the conditions at Long Kesh (no matter how reprehensible) as akin to a Nazi concentration camp.

No point debating with you as you don't have the comprehension skills needed to debate instead you create a fantasy in your head about what you think I said.

Enniskillen ? The civilian's there were collaborating with Crown forces, an occupying force who murdered Irish children in the streets. That's an indisputable fact. But as I previously stated they were not the target. If it had just been civilians the event would not have been targeted. IT WAS A MILITARY EVENT.

Civilians were told many times to stay away from Crown forces by the IRA.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Enniskillen ? The civilian's there were collaborating with Crown forces, an occupying force who murdered Irish children in the streets. That's an indisputable fact.

That's about the most off the wall post in this thread, and there's a lot of competition.

 

[Kalfindin]

That's about the most off the wall post in this thread, and there's a lot of competition.

Its accurate.

 

[Pickman's model]

what you've shown is that you can't construct an argument which bears examination, and that you're most at home making up quotes about raping children. this hardly displays you in the best light, politically or morally.

While your making up quotes about me elevates you to moral high ground that requires the aid of sherpas to reach.

Face it Pickman's without your double standards you'd have no standards.



Fuck off. The entire argument aganist the IRA deliberate targetting of civilians is the misnomer that "if the IRA were targetting civilians the deathtowl would be higher" as if the argument that the IRA wouldn't be nuanced enough to target civilians, with the knowledge that limited damage would promote the cause but mass casualties would remove any international sympathy.

How anyone can try and argue that the IRA never targeted civilians (which least we remember was the spur of this massive tangent) when clearly they did, and instead we wander into a cul de sac where we seem to laude the IRA for not trying to maximise civilian causlities as if to say, "ho ray they planted bombs in pubs in guilford and birmingham put they were trying to kill the handful of squaddies that were sometimes in these pubs so thats alright then.

the argument isn't, sadly for you, did the ira kill civilians. obviously they did. the stall you've set out is that the ira DELIBERATELY targeted civilians. your decision to phrase it like that, not mine. and you've repeatedly insisted that the ira DELIBERATELY targeted civilians - that is, their primary target was civilians. at that point you should stop talking about the bombings in guildford and in birmingham which were targeted at the army. this is not to say that every civilian death at the hands of the ira isn't a tragedy - it is. but it is to say that if you want to talk about the deliberate targeting of civilians then please find examples which actually bear out your claim. you say that international sympathy for the ira would be damaged by mass casualties. yes. and what about domestic support? do you think the nationalists and republicans of the six counties so contorted with hate that they would ignore mass killings of civilians? do you think that if the provisional ira had planted the bomb in omagh they wouldn't have seen some dip in their support from their constituency? as Kalfindin says, the armed struggle cannot do without the support of 'the people'. and that support can easily be lost. there is no way that the ira campaign could have got through 1972 unless it had the tacit or active support of a considerable number of people - the earlier ira campaigns such as the '56-'62 border campaign fizzled out because of a lack of support. why not try putting together an argument which holds water? who knows, you might even enjoy it.

btw could you pls try to master the intricacies of the quote tool.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Its accurate.

No, it's nuts. La La Land. Don't know what planet it's from.

 

[Kalfindin]

No, it's nuts. La La Land. Don't know what planet it's from.

In other words you don't have the intelligence to debate.

 

[8den]

No point debating with you as you don't have the comprehension skills needed to debate instead you create a fantasy in your head about what you think I said.

Enniskillen ? The civilian's there were collaborating with Crown forces, an occupying force who murdered Irish children in the streets. That's an indisputable fact. But as I previously stated they were not the target. If it had just been civilians the event would not have been targeted. IT WAS A MILITARY EVENT.

Civilians were told many times to stay away from Crown forces by the IRA.

And the lance armstrong back peddling award goes to our newest idiot on the thread. Basically

"Whoa whoa whoa! I never said they were Nazis, just they totally deserved to be murdered for turning up at civil remembrance service even the the IRA admited was a horrible mistake....,


and the staff of those pubs the IRA bombed they totally deserved getting murdered for serving crown forces drinks. But y'know we can't apply the same standards to say for example the 3 IRA members murdered in cold blood by the crown on the rock. thats a henious crime that is.

 

[sleaterkinney]

In other words you don't have the intelligence to debate.

You're not making a point from this universe, so I can't debate with you.

 

[Kalfindin]

And the lance armstrong back peddling award goes to our newest idiot on the thread. Basically

"Whoa whoa whoa! I never said they were Nazis, just they totally deserved to be murdered for turning up at civil remembrance service even the the IRA admited was a horrible mistake....,


and the staff of those pubs the IRA bombed they totally deserved getting murdered for serving crown forces drinks. But y'know we can't apply the same standards to say for example the 3 IRA members murdered in cold blood by the crown on the rock. thats a henious crime that is.

You are obviously a Sun reader.

How is a military event a civil event ? You don't seem to understand, Ireland is under occupation, the people have a right to fight back (but as I stated at present conditions don't allow for that strategy) , if collaborators got killed, well that's war.

The three IRA members in Gibraltar where shot dead under the lie there was a bomb in a car and they had a remote to detonate it, they had been under constant surveillance, there was no bomb, the reasons given for the shootings where total lies.

 

[Kalfindin]

You're not making a point from this universe, so I can't debate with you.

In other words you dont have the intelligence to, so make smart ass comments to make up for your inability.

 

[Pickman's model]

And the lance armstrong back peddling award goes to our newest idiot on the thread. Basically

"Whoa whoa whoa! I never said they were Nazis, just they totally deserved to be murdered for turning up at civil remembrance service even the the IRA admited was a horrible mistake....,


and the staff of those pubs the IRA bombed they totally deserved getting murdered for serving crown forces drinks. But y'know we can't apply the same standards to say for example the 3 IRA members murdered in cold blood by the crown on the rock. thats a henious crime that is.

so what you're saying is that the state is quite entitled to throw away all its pretensions of legality and murder people if it chooses. you're barking.

here's a simple point. let's see if you can understand it. the ira campaign from 1969 was an insurgency. the british campaign against the pira, oira etc was a counter-insurgency. are you with me so far?

in a counter-insurgency campaign the war is not for land but for the loyalty of the population. one of the most important weapons in the armoury of the state is its legitimacy. killing three unarmed ira volunteers may not be a great own goal. but lying about it and smearing witnesses is a huge own goal and undermines the legitimacy of the security forces campaign - not just in ireland or britain, but across europe and america. the strength of the counter-insurgents is their keeping to rules, to showing the advantages of siding with the government. time and again the stormont and westminster governments handed the ira huge propaganda coups when they undermined their own legitimacy.

 

[sleaterkinney]

And the lance armstrong back peddling award goes to our newest idiot on the thread.

Thankfully idiots on the scale of this one seem to be in very short supply in NI at the moment. Support for Sinn Fein grows year on year.