Gerry Adams exposed , his lies demolished at brothers rape trial

[8den]

amazing, a punter who prefaces his post with whatabout goes on to accuse others of whataboutery . Classic stuff

I'd really not start trying to get on your high horse about other poster' "double standards". The congntive dissonance should give you a wicked a headache.

The logic of your own argument here is interesting . You state that supporters of Irish republicanism cant pick and choose which actions they support or not and have to support either all or none.
As a supporter of Britains violation of your own countrys sovereignty

Wait. Shut the fuck up. Put on the brakes. For shits and giggles. Go on and find a single example of my "supporting" the UVF/British Army/B-Specials or anyone.

and the occupation of its territory you then , logically, must also support the means used to do this.
Which means you not only support your own countrymen being massacred on Bloody Sunday , Springhill, New Lodge, Ballymurphy, plastic bullets, internment and torture, sectarian discrimination, base sectarianism as a political tool...you also support things like the Dublin Monaghan massacres, shankill butchers, numerous pub massacres...all that stuff too.

Is this what your pragmatism and realism entails ? Because plainly if what you loudly demand of others is applied to yourself, this collective moral guilt for all actions committed in the name of the position one espuses, then it doesnt make for pretty reading at all. Your own morality is well in the gutter, right down there with the worst excesses of Britians spooks and green slime. Although intheir defence theyre at least acting in what they perceive to be their own countrys national and strategic interest. Why you support them doing this stuff to your own country makes you a very different beast entirely.

Realism and pragmatism...I suppose one could call it that.

You and logic, realism pragatism, and rationalism have simply never met.

You seem to think that by condemning the murder of innocents by the IRA I am okay with violence by British soldiers or the the UVF.

It's just breathtaking, heartbreakingly, honestly just fucking incredibly stupid.

This is one of the few topics on this site where people will happily justify sectarian violence, and by justify I mean say things along the lines of (it's okay that they killed him he was a cook at a military barracks) As if say the Israeli government executed a cook at a cafe Hamas frequented.

 

[Casually Red]

And The Birmingham pub bombings? And La Mon? Harrods? Einskillen? Teebane (are go going to argue that the killing of a reservist justifies the deaths of the 7 people in the van with him?) How where the two children in Warrington working for the occupation forces?

tions! Regrettable but necessary![/QUOTE]
ive addressed the fact the civilian contractors killed in teebane were actively engaged in contracted work the British military. And under the rules of any military conflict such people themselves become legitmate targets for any army. The British army could legitmately target them if they were working for a military enemy they were in the field against.

leaving that aside you arent even arguing here that an insurgency that results in the unintended deaths of civilian passersby becomes illegitmate simply due to that fact. Your actually arguing the insurgency specifically targetted those civilians killed during various military mistakes. Youre arguing these deaths were deliberately planned. Which is plainly ridiculous, such debacles were plainly extremely detrimental to the republican cause. Something your using this wholly dishonest argument to portray as nothing more than immoral, illogical act of criminal madness carried out by obvious psychopaths who just wanted to kill people because they were evil to the core.
Because as Ive pointed out you dont have either the political balls or acumen to take on the republican argument in a rational debate, so you play the moral panic card instead.

 

[8den]

you plainly support it in your arguments and go further to argue that opposition to it is

No. Please explain. How I have "actively" (YOUR WORDS) supported the occupation "foreign military occupation of Ireland".

Please. Or would you like me to give you the definition of the word "active"?

Have I let British Troops stay in my house?

Turned in Republicans?

Handed over state secrets?

Go down on Prince Philip?

intrinsically morally evil on every level.

Just to remind everyone this thread is about Gerry Adams ordering the execution of a single catholic mother and covering up his brothers paedophile while allowing him to work as youth worker in their parish in Belfast.

But yes my inability to be a cheerleader for IRA terrorism is what's intrinsically morally evil about this situation in CRs head.[/QUOTE]

 

[toggle]

Your actually arguing the insurgency specifically targetted those civilians killed during various military mistakes. Youre arguing these deaths were deliberately planned. Which is plainly ridiculous, such debacles were plainly extremely detrimental to the republican cause.

certainly after they adopted the dual strategy in 81 there is clear evidence that civilian deaths dropped voter figures. Impression I got was that it didn't make a significant difference before that?

 

[Casually Red]

I'd really not start trying to get on your high horse about other poster' "double standards". The congntive dissonance should give you a wicked a headache.





Wait. Shut the fuck up. Put on the brakes. For shits and giggles. Go on and find a single example of my "supporting" the UVF/British Army/B-Specials or anyone.




You and logic, realism pragatism, and rationalism have simply never met.

You seem to think that by condemning the murder of innocents by the IRA I am okay with violence by British soldiers or the the UVF.

It's just breathtaking, heartbreakingly, honestly just fucking incredibly stupid.

This is one of the few topics on this site where people will happily justify sectarian violence, and by justify I mean say things along the lines of (it's okay that they killed him he was a cook at a military barracks) As if say the Israeli government executed a cook at a cafe Hamas frequented.

The Israeli military could and would happily drop a bomb on a cafe Hamas frequented. However a British military base is plainly not a cafe. And the British army plainly arent a catering firm . If Patsy Gillespie had been a frenchman engaged as a contractor for the german army he could have been hung or shot, even guillotined, quite legitmately by his fellow countrymen in 1944 . Its a deliberate act of collaboration by any definition.

You arent just condmening the IRAs mistakes. Your arguing the mistakes were deliberate. Your also arguing that reublicans are supportive of all actions taken by the insurgency and cant differentiate. Yet yu reserve for yourself the right to distance yourself from the very deliberate atrocities committed in the persuit of the political position you support, that of the British state.

 

[8den]

tions! Regrettable but necessary!

The justification of murder of children people!

ive addressed the fact the civilian contractors killed in teebane were actively engaged in contracted work the British military. And under the rules of any military conflict such people themselves become legitmate targets for any army. The British army could legitmately target them if they were working for a military enemy they were in the field against.

Just for shits and giggles.

Surely you'll then agree that the SAS killing of Seán Savage, Daniel McCann, and Mairéad Farrel was equally justified.

I mean they were military personal engaging in military action? Right?

leaving that aside you arent even arguing here that an insurgency that results in the unintended deaths of civilian passersby becomes illegitmate simply due to that fact. Your actually arguing the insurgency specifically targetted those civilians killed during various military mistakes.

I've yet to hear how bombs in Strabane Einskillen and other places were okay.

Youre arguing these deaths were deliberately planned. Which is plainly ridiculous, such debacles were plainly extremely detrimental to the republican cause.

Wait so you can use human error to excuse republican mistakes.

Hypothetical can you allow the british state the same?

Something your using this wholly dishonest argument to portray as nothing more than immoral, illogical act of criminal madness carried out by obvious psychopaths who just wanted to kill people because they were evil to the core.
Because as Ive pointed out you dont have either the political balls or acumen to take on the republican argument in a rational debate, so you play the moral panic card instead.

Please explain how I am

actively support the foreign military occupation of your own nation

Give examples....

 

[8den]

[QUOTE="Casually Red, post: 13222567, member: 49433"
You arent just condmening the IRAs mistakes. Your arguing the mistakes were deliberate. Your also arguing that reublicans are supportive of all actions taken by the insurgency and cant differentiate. Yet yu reserve for yourself the right to distance yourself from the very deliberate atrocities committed in the persuit of the political position you support, that of the British state.[/QUOTE]


You are arguing I am actively supporting the British State. Explain how,

 

[Casually Red]

certainly after they adopted the dual strategy in 81 there is clear evidence that civilian deaths dropped voter figures. Impression I got was that it didn't make a significant difference before that?

any insurgency is completely reliant on the community it swims in to support it, even if its just by looking the other way and seeing nothing. Without that its impossible to sustain especially against a modern professional force like the British military. The Irish population plainly were not prepared to stomach civilian casualties. All those civilian deaths impacted directly on their support. on their support base. The repercussions within were about a lot more than votes. Everything from safe houses to donations to blind eyes would all have been directly impacted by these actions and the political capital made out of them by the supporters of the British states position.

as you can see 8den attempting to do.

 

[Casually Red]

Because he used it



I'm genuinely curious to know how I actively support the occupation of Ireland. His words.

There is a epic amount of bullshit in his post I just picked out one accusation in the litany of hyperbolllock shite in his posts.

Apparently disagreeing with the concept of murdering civilians and blowing people up to achieve some weird nationalistic bullshit makes me a "traitor" according to the emotive shite being flung by the verbal slurry machine CR.

well you actively espouse the opinion that the very concept of Ireland ever being free from foreign occupation is weird nationalistic bullshit. Logic dictates that as your actively opposed to this you support the constitutional status quo instead. Which is British rule in Ireland. As far as I know your active support for British rule in Ireland just consists of supporting the British states position on the internet. For all I know though you could have been over with Martin McGuinness toasting the queens health. Ive no idea.

 

[8den]

well you actively espouse the opinion that the very concept of Ireland ever being free from foreign occupation is weird nationalistic bullshit.

How is that "actively supporting the occupation of Ireland?

Logic dictates that as your actively opposed to this you support the constitutional status quo instead.

Whether I agree/disagree with the concept, how do I "actively support British rule in Ireland"?

Am I quartering a platoon of Paratroopers in my house?

Raise funds for British government?

Please give examples of my active support for the occupation.


Again I think you and logic may not be on a 1st name basis.

Did I spy for the crown?

Which is British rule in Ireland. As far as I know your active support for British rule in Ireland just consists of supporting the British states position on the internet.

Okay. Two points.


1. Do you know what the word "active" means? Expressing a opinion is not "active" support. It's passive.

2. Please state where exactly I've supported the British state. Use quotes to support your position.

For all I know though you could have been over with Martin McGuinness toasting the queens health. Ive no idea.

Okay so since you have no evidence to support your claim that I "actively support British rule in Ireland" we can just go go ahead and call you a "jumped up cretinous fuckwit", yes? I mean I have evidence to support my opinion other than your words. Okay? Good.

And N_igma says I have a irrational hatred of people who disagree with my position in Ireland! CR has called me a traitor and a active support of the crown just because I think murdering innocent people to achieve your political aims is reprehensible.

 

[8den]

any insurgency is completely reliant on the community it swims in to support it,

tell that to the families of people like Robert Mc Cartney and Jean Mc Conville.

 

[torquemad]

tell that to the families of people like Robert Mc Cartney and Jean Mc Conville.

Robert McCartney's murder was hardly to do with the "insurgency". It was criminality pure and simple, but with one added facet. As has been the case for the past twenty five years, both camps have diversified into criminality and when that has happened in any politically driven movement, some people have been happy to exploit the blurred lines for personal gain as opposed to the cause (sic). Indeed, the criminality has often been conflated with the cause so as to obscure activities. Do not confuse the two.

In the case of Jean McConville, I believe the situation was rather different. At that particular time there was no clear overview of how the fight was developing - from an overall, strategic perspective - and the tight central command structure which later came to characterise Provisional organisation was not tyhen in place. Battalions were more likely to be autonomous. None of that justifies the abduction and murder of Jean McConville especially, based as it was, on speculation and unfounded concerns about her as an individual and her religious affiliations.

They were shit times and, in shit times, shitty things happen but I am inclined to belkieve His Gerryness when he says that he neither knew about nor sanctioned the McConville murder.

In short, do not assume that everything which happens and which is attributed to a formal political/ military entity is sanctioned by same.

 

[8den]

While " not assume that everything which happens and which is attributed to a formal political/ military entity is sanctioned by same."

Is a fair assumption.

1. The level of threads and intimidation and hostility to the families of Mc Conville and Mc Cartney are telling.

Robert Mc Cartney's family and Mc Conville's family have spent decades on the receiving end of catholic abuse.

Keep in mind CR calls me a traitor for having the audacity of just thinking he's wrong. He accuses me of actively supporting his enemies based (on the fact he can't provide any evidence) because I dare disagree with him)

 

[torquemad]

While " not assume that everything which happens and which is attributed to a formal political/ military entity is sanctioned by same."

Is a fair assumption.

1. The level of threads and intimidation and hostility to the families of Mc Conville and Mc Cartney are telling.

Robert Mc Cartney's family and Mc Conville's family have spent decades on the receiving end of catholic abuse.

Keep in mind CR calls me a traitor for having the audacity of just thinking he's wrong. He accuses me of actively supporting his enemies based (on the fact he can't provide any evidence) because I dare disagree with him)

I have no part in your dispute with CR. Nor do I wish to.

But I would say this. With reference to the threats and and intimidation towards the McCartney family in particular, that does not undermine the point I made with regard to the culture of criminality. Communities, especially those surrounded by hostile elements as was and remains the case in Short Strand, are easily susceptible to people or groups who apparently offer resistance to that hostile external element. Far from unusual. Thisnk of the support the Krays enjoyed amongst East End families, think of the way in which Mad Dog Adair was allowed to operate with tacit consent. And think about the situation which allowed the criminal Mafia godfathers to emerge and prosper in Italian communities not only in Sicily but in NYC/ Chicago etc.

 

[8den]

as, on speculation and unfounded concerns about her as an individual and her religious affiliations.

They were shit times and, in shit times, shitty things happen but I am inclined to belkieve His Gerryness when he says that he neither knew about nor sanctioned the McConville murder.

Aside from the fact that senior IRA members active at the time point the blame at him

Oh and do pray tell what are is your opinion on his Gerryness's protection of his brother's sexual assault of his Gerryness' niece?

In short, do not assume that everything which happens and which is attributed to a formal political/ military entity is sanctioned by same.

It's a marvelous double standard. See in my world I can equate both the Eniskillen bomb and the Bloody Sunday attack both as heinous crimes.

Yet because I condemn Eniskillen on this forum I am seen as "active supporter of the British occupation" (or words to that effect).

I mean CR/N_igma are capable of accusing anyone who disagrees with them as a traitor.




Casually Red please explain exactly how I am "actively" supporting the "British occupation of Ireland". And give some examples using clear quotes.

Otherswise you're liar and a cunt.

 

[8den]

I have no part in your dispute with CR. Nor do I wish to.

But I would say this. With reference to the threats and and intimidation towards the McCartney family in particular, that does not undermine the point I made with regard to the culture of criminality. Communities, especially those surrounded by hostile elements as was and remains the case in Short Strand, are easily susceptible to people or groups who apparently offer resistance to that hostile external element. Far from unusual. Thisnk of the support the Krays enjoyed amongst East End families, think of the way in which Mad Dog Adair was allowed to operate with tacit consent. And think about the situation which allowed the criminal Mafia godfathers to emerge and prosper in Italian communities not only in Sicily but in NYC/ Chicago etc.

Fuck and off.

Do you remember how the IRA offered to kneecap/kill the murderers? Do you remember how the sisters were run out of their homes for not supporting the IRA's answer to their brother's murder.

It's nearly a decade since his death there is no justification for his murder (but give CR a chance)and the death of intimidation and harassment his sisters endured trying to achieve peace (bombed out of their homes) is telling as to how the IRA's communities work.

 

[8den]

Shall I check my bank statement to see how I am "actively supporting the occupation of Ireland". Last standing order I agreed to was for Amnesty Int I think....

 

[torquemad]

Fuck and off.

Nice. Suggest you read it again matey. And until you do so and show that you can understand I am out. Why don't you and CR just carry on with the same old same old.

I can see you taking another ten pages to get ..... er, nowhere. But carry on.

 

[8den]

Nice. Suggest you read it again matey. And until you do so and show that you can understand I am out. Why don't you and CR just carry on with the same old same old.

I can see you taking another ten pages to get ..... er, nowhere. But carry on.

A) When you call Gerry Adams "his Greyness" a man who ordered the murder of Jean Mc Conville and hid his brother's sexual abuse of his daughter, I think you're a cunt.

 

[torquemad]

A) When you call Gerry Adams "his Greyness" ..... I think you're a cunt.

His "Greyness"??? My earlier suggestion refers. READ IT AGAIN YA MUG!

A question. What proof do you have of his having ordered the murder of Mrs McConville? I am interested. And I know others are. You could even use the Confidential Hotline.

I came into this thread on the subject of the McCartney and McConville issues. You appear to become disproportianately incensed about non-specific issues. So, as previously, away and wallow in your own pish for another ten pages.

Sayonara.

 

[8den]

His "Greyness"??? My earlier suggestion refers. READ IT AGAIN YA MUG!

A question. What proof do you have of his having ordered the murder of Mrs McConville? I am interested. And I know others are. You could even use the Confidential Hotline.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/03/jean-mcconville-timeline-murder-gerry-adams

Fuck off. Unless you are calling Mc Hughes a liar?

Hey you calling Adam's niece a liar, she told her uncle her father was abusing her a decade before the criminal trial.

Thoughts? Comments? Etc?

I came into this thread on the subject of the McCartney and McConville issues. You appear to become disproportianately incensed about non-specific issues. So, as previously, away and wallow in your own pish for another ten pages.

The thread title is about the very specific issues of Adams behaviour arround his brother convicted of raping Adam's niece.

We can happily bring this awful story back to Adams williness to hid his brother's sexual assault of daugther.

How Adam's brother took job's in youth centers in Dundalk and Belfast including one in the community center in Adam's parish.

I'd run away from this issue torqueham!

Sayonara.

No pray tell do let on how Adam's behaviour in the sexual assault of his niece and how senior IRA members implicate him in the murder of a single mother isnt a issue weh should care about.

Pray do tell...

 

[torquemad]

Re: Hughes, a reliable witness? Dolours Price, a reliable witness? Not in my book, not in relation to the internal schisms in Sinn Fein. But hey, don't let that get in your way.

August 2013 you said: " ..... I'm Irish, Working class, and firmly anti republican .....". That just about sums up your line. Anything which will support your hatred, you will espouse. Despite the fact that you are, in the main, clutching at hearsay, that you have not got the cojones to call the hotline you still carry blindly on. In fact, if you are so sure - and since you have made your position so clear here - you shouldn't even need the hotline. Just go to the press.

Having read your pathetic rantings in this and other threads, I am going to leave you to it.
Carry on and feed your bitterness. It will give you something to blame your aneurysm on.

Carry on.

 

[8den]

So no evidence I "actively" support the British occupation of Ireland.

Grand so. Let the bullshit continue. I notice you danced over Adam's behavior re his niece's sexual abuse too. Lets skim over what a truly vile human being he really is.

 

[Pickman's model]

So no evidence I "actively" support the British occupation of Ireland.

Grand so. Let the bullshit continue. I notice you danced over Adam's behavior re his niece's sexual abuse too. Lets skim over what a truly vile human being he really is.

you've not had the balls to come back to me you snivelling little coward

 

[Pickman's model]

8den *taps watch*

 

[Pickman's model]

8den you talk to other people. why are you so scared of answering me?

 

[likesfish]

The problem with the armed struggle was it was bollocks from the state even a brief reading of mao would have seen the futile nature of the goal.
A more than 50% of the population were really against not being british the death knell
B irish goverment far from supportive and incapable of any worthwhile action.
C irish people not up a socialist goverment in any way shape or form
D British not that interested it was never top of the agenda just about every NI minister was a no hoper / punishment posting. The army actually saw it as a useful live training facility.

 

[toggle]

a. the one thing that was without doubt was the manipulative abilities of the Ulster leaders. they created a situation where nothing was deemed more important than being British, to maintain their own power. had that unequal power structure been removed earlier 9or better, never created), as it should have been, then we don't know how this would have turned out. eg, the civil rights campaign was opposed by protestant w/c who would have gained as much from reform, such as the removal of plural voting that was removed elsewhere in Britain in 1918 (I think) as the Catholics protesting. what I'm saying is that we really have no idea what the population might have thought had they not been manipulated to prop up that power structure.

b. on the 'do not piss off your well armed neighbour?' the neighbor that had some difficulty recognizing Irish sovereignty, and had not updated its legal position since the creation of the free state, and who had a habit of seriously debating whether to violate Irish sovereignty at their convenience?

c. not by then. earlier things were more interesting.

d. the army also had little sympathy for either side from some of the stories i've heard. But yes, the government had always wanted Ireland to go away. since the home rule debate started being heard, the solution to the irish problem was to make discussion of it go away. the logic of wanting to maintain sovereignty over a land that no one gave a crap about completely passes me by.

 

[Ld222]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/03/jean-mcconville-timeline-murder-gerry-adams

Fuck off. Unless you are calling Mc Hughes a liar?


Pray do tell...

Whos is McHughs??.... Pray do tell?

 

[Pickman's model]

The problem with the armed struggle was it was bollocks from the state even a brief reading of mao would have seen the futile nature of the goal.
A more than 50% of the population were really against not being british the death knell
B irish goverment far from supportive and incapable of any worthwhile action.
C irish people not up a socialist goverment in any way shape or form
D British not that interested it was never top of the agenda just about every NI minister was a no hoper / punishment posting. The army actually saw it as a useful live training facility.

the problem you face is mao not universally applicable any more than guevara was. so your theses are faeces, as luther said.