German poster campaign launched to find surviving Nazis

[frogwoman]

Miss Caphat littlebabyjesus anyway my nan is the same age as many of these nazis would be and she's still as sharp as fuck, still drives a car and everything. being over a certain age doesn't necessarily mean senile or bedridden and it's a bit patronising to assume that it does. why does every old person have to be seen like this?

why can't you be over a certain age and still be responsible for your actions?

 

[Miss Caphat]

Nobody is doing the same as the Nazis.

How is putting war criminals on trial for crimes that they have got away with all of their lives the same as what they did? They murdered innocent people by industrial processes and they raped and shot them and they humiliated them before they died. they took pleasure out of it.

you both misread that. JC said the Nazis had shown no mercy to the elderly. that was what I was referring to.
I feel like this is going around in circles, and that we should just agree to disagree.
I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone whose relatives and lives were affected by the holocaust, I just don't have a sense that this is the way to bring justice to the victims, but as I said I totally understand the other point of view too.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Iand please spare me the melodrama,.

Reciting the facts of what these people did is not melodrama. It's the forgetting or ignoring of what they did that allows people to reach a conclusion that 'bygones be bygones' is the easiest and best way to go.

 

[frogwoman]

Fair play. Sorry to go off on one like that. I genuinely don't understand a lot of arguments that are made about this though, I mean wtf.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

II think there are plenty of people out there who have committed much more recent atrocities who we should be going after, who are not going to be senile, bed-ridden, and/or drop dead from the stress of the trial before it's over.

You aren't bothered by the thought of some man who has crushed babies underfoot, passing away quietly in a rocker with his grandchildren around?

I suppose we all have different conceptions of justice; but for me, that isn't it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I think there are plenty of people out there who have committed much more recent atrocities who we should be going after, .

Why do we have to pick and choose? Why not try to bring all of them to justice?

You seem to be suggesting that if they're able to run and hide for long enough, they'll be allowed to get away with it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

My kid told me about a university class where they showed death camp footage from World At War, or something similar.
Most of the class was in tears.

Why? Because most of what they were seeing was news to them, and therefore, totally shocking. It is totally shocking, but it shouldn't be fresh news.

The fact that it's fresh news to newer generations helps to explain the 'bygones be bygones' approach a little better.

 

[Belushi]

Hitler is reported to have dismissed objections to the final solution with the words 'Who remembers the Armenian massacres today?'

This isn't just about justice for those the Nazis slaughtered seventy years ago. It's also about sending a message that genocide will be remembered, that even if you get away with it for now you will always be looking over your shoulder, that your crimes will follow you to your dying day.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Hitler is reported to have dismissed objections to the final solution with the words 'Who remembers the Armenian massacres today?'

This isn't just about justice for those the Nazis slaughtered seventy years ago. It's also about sending a message that genocide will be remembered, that even if you get away with it for now you will always be looking over your shoulder, that your crimes will follow you to your dying day.

Well said.

 

[Miss Caphat]

Miss Caphat littlebabyjesus anyway my nan is the same age as many of these nazis would be and she's still as sharp as fuck, still drives a car and everything. being over a certain age doesn't necessarily mean senile or bedridden and it's a bit patronising to assume that it does. why does every old person have to be seen like this?

why can't you be over a certain age and still be responsible for your actions?

my grandmother is 98. still sharp as a tack too, but still very different than she was when she was younger in a lot of ways.
My grandfather lived to be 93, iirc. He was a shell of his former self. Which truth be told was sort of a curmudgeonly authoritarian (sorry grandpa ) . It was like he lacked the energy to be that person anymore as he got older, and he just sort of existed without much purpose, despite not having dementia or anything like that. He often seemed bewildered, and like a vulnerable child who couldn't have raised his voice or his fist at anyone if his life depended on it.
My other grandmother has dementia.
I know that not every elderly person has some sort of mental incapacity. But the chances are a lot greater once people start getting into their 90's.

 

[Miss Caphat]

You aren't bothered by the thought of some man who has crushed babies underfoot, passing away quietly in a rocker with his grandchildren around?

I suppose we all have different conceptions of justice; but for me, that isn't it.

how many times do I have to say it? it's pretty much too late for that kind of justice. the fact that they let so much time pass is not my fault.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

it's pretty much too late for that kind of justice. .

So; get away long enough, and it becomes 'too late' to face justice. Even if you've murdered thousands.

I don't agree. The humanity in us demands some attempt at justice, no matter how long it takes.

the fact that they let so much time pass is not my fault

It's not about you.

 

[purenarcotic]

It isn't necessarily just about giving out some kind of punishment IMO. It's about a much wider principle: that those who commit crimes like that should be held to some sort of account, that we should should say that what they did was inherently wrong and they should be made to answer for what they did.

I am not particularly interested in sending somebody in their 90's to prison, I am not particularly keen on the concept of prison full stop tbh, but I am interested in people taking some responsibility for their actions and being held to account for them.

 

[Miss Caphat]

So; get away long enough, and it becomes 'too late' to face justice. Even if you've murdered thousands.

I don't agree. The humanity in us demands some attempt at justice, no matter how long it takes.



It's not about you.

you keep making it seem like it is somehow about me though, that's kind of my point. look at what you just did there ..."even if you've murdered thousands"

I know you don't agree. That comes across loud and clear.
I don't feel like it is justice, as I've already mentioned.
Does that mean I think we should let people get away? well if you can't find them after that long due to not really trying, maybe that's a crime in itself.
They finally found Whitey Bulger (83 now) and he's standing trial now. I have no problem with that. He was still a mob boss in the 90's, and he probably is one still.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

if you can't find them after that long due to not really trying, maybe that's a crime in itself.
.

I totally agree; but that's a different crime, committed by different people.

The unexcusable laxity in the efforts by NA and European govts in chasing these people is totally wrong. But that doesn't somehow exonerate the war criminals. If someone is able to get them today, 70 years after the fact, that's fine.

 

[frogwoman]

It isn't necessarily just about giving out some kind of punishment IMO. It's about a much wider principle: that those who commit crimes like that should be held to some sort of account, that we should should say that what they did was inherently wrong and they should be made to answer for what they did.

I am not particularly interested in sending somebody in their 90's to prison, I am not particularly keen on the concept of prison full stop tbh, but I am interested in people taking some responsibility for their actions and being held to account for them.

exactly, it's about showing respect, to the victims, to say that what happened is still important and must be remembered, and that these cunts will one day have to answer to somebody. that it doesn't matter how much time has passed wrong is wrong and that's all there is to it.

 

[weltweit]

Perhaps the last gasp aspect of this poster campaign is more to do with the Wiesenthal centre losing its reason d'etre rather than Nazi war criminals dying out from old age. What will become of the Wiesenthal centre in ten years time when there are no more Nazis to hunt?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Perhaps the last gasp aspect of this poster campaign is more to do with the Wiesenthal centre losing its reason d'etre rather than Nazi war criminals dying out from old age. What will become of the Wiesenthal centre in ten years time when there are no more Nazis to hunt?

Alternatively, they believe in what they're doing, and this is the last chance to bring some of these people to justice.

 

[frogwoman]

dunno, what do you think?

it's times like this i wish the christians were right and there is a massive massive fucking lake of fire and demons with red hot pokers down there. and beasts with ten horns and that sort of stuff.

 

[weltweit]

Alternatively, they believe in what they're doing, and this is the last chance to bring some of these people to justice.

I am sure they do believe in what they are doing, and bringing Nazis to justice is a valid aim, though why any are still free this far after the end of the war is a bit beyond me, but anyhow it is also a valid question to wonder what they will do when no Nazis can still be alive by dint of sufficient time passing.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I don't believe in a lake of fire. I think we are left to our own puny devices to try and understand, to fashion a sense of right and wrong; to try to decide, what to do.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I am sure they do believe in what they are doing, and bringing Nazis to justice is a valid aim, though why any are still free this far after the end of the war is a bit beyond me, but anyhow it is also a valid question to wonder what they will do when no Nazis can still be alive by dint of sufficient time passing.

Maybe they can become more of an informational organization; a keeper of the facts dedicated to ensuring that the memory isn't lost.

 

[weltweit]

My dad was at Bergen Belsen shortly after it was liberated, he died about 5 years ago aged something like 85.

A German woman who was a nurse on the Russian front died earlier this year, in her nineties.

A former wartime colleague of my dad's who was at Dunkirk is still alive and perky at about 93.

The WWII generation are fading now. Hopefully they have told their stories enough to keep their memories alive for the future.

 

[weltweit]

Maybe they can become more of an informational organization; a keeper of the facts dedicated to ensuring that the memory isn't lost.

Sure, maybe ..

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

A memory: it's from the diary of a Warsaw citizen, concerning the Warsaw Ghetto:

"The majority are nightmare figures, ghosts of former human beings, miserable distitutes, pathetic remains of humanity...On the streets children are crying in vain, children who are dying of hunger. They howl, beg, moan, sing, shiver with cold, without underwear, without clothing, without shoes, in rags, sacks, flannel which are bound in strips round the emaciated skeletons, children swollen with hunger, disfigured, half consicous, already completely grown-up at the age of five, gloomy and weary of life."

- Diary of Stanislav Rozycki, in Landau,'The Nazi Holocaust', p. 158

 

[weltweit]

I just read Moments of Reprieve, Primo Levi about moments of kindness during his time in Auschwitz. (although some were kinder than others) It seems he found it hard in post war Italy to come to terms with being a survivor, in the end after writing some books, he committed suicide.

 

[Miss Caphat]

I just read Moments of Reprieve, Primo Levi about moments of kindness during his time in Auschwitz. (although some were kinder than others) It seems he found it hard in post war Italy to come to terms with being a survivor, in the end after writing some books, he committed suicide.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I just read Moments of Reprieve, Primo Levi about moments of kindness during his time in Auschwitz. (although some were kinder than others) It seems he found it hard in post war Italy to come to terms with being a survivor, in the end after writing some books, he committed suicide.

Yet another victim, once-removed, of the same men that the new German poster campaign is about.

 

[cesare]

1
2

Thanks

 

[weltweit]

Yet another victim, once-removed, of the same men that the new German poster campaign is about.

Actually I may have been over dramatic when describing Primo Levi above, according to his Wikipedia page : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primo_Levi he lived to 1987 and his death, falling from a balcony could have been an accident.