German poster campaign launched to find surviving Nazis

[Giles]

There should not be any "statute of limitations" for ANY serious crime - especially murder, whether a war crime or "just ordinary murder".

But by now, you'd have to doubt that they will actually successfully prosecute anyone else.

How do you prove it after this time?

Also, anyone actually "senior" enough to have made evil decisions would be dead by now.

You'd only be looking at someone who was a teenage conscript in the last years of WW2, and even then they'd have to be almost 90 at a minimum.

By 1944 people were conscripted even to the SS.

From Germany and from countries occupied by the Nazis.

I suspect that this is more of a gesture than anything else.

There are plenty of people responsible for more recent atrocities in Rwanda, Bosnia, Congo, Libya, Iraq that need catching.

Giles..

 

[littlebabyjesus]

so would it be any different in your view if they were also offering rewards for israeli 1948 war criminals?

Well they wouldn't, given who they are, so it would have to be some other organisation doing it for different motivation, as part of a different campaign. I think I understand Rutita's comparison with the anti-immigrant poster campaign. If not, then my point of comparison would be this - that it is being run by the government matters, who it is being run by and why they are running it are an essential part of what it is.

Given that they are committed in their mission statement to 'stand firmly with Israel', I'd be interested to know what they mean exactly by 'the truth behind anti-Semitism'.

 

[frogwoman]

And what about straightforward criminal "cold cases" from the 50s and 60s? that was how people like Bible John got caught who was murdering people until up until a few years ago. Should we just leave it because it was too long ago? What about killers like the Zodiac Killer who were murdering people within a period of 30 or 40 years? Should the earlier murders be ignored?

 

[frogwoman]

Well they wouldn't, given who they are, so it would have to be some other organisation doing it for different motivation, as part of a different campaign. I think I understand Rutita's comparison with the anti-immigrant poster campaign. If not, then my point of comparison would be this - that it is being run by the government matters, who it is being run by and why they are running it are an essential part of what it is.

Given that they are committed in their mission statement to 'stand firmly with Israel', I'd be interested to know what they mean exactly by 'the truth behind anti-Semitism'.

large jewish organisation in its leadership publically supporting israel shocker.

 

[DotCommunist]

well the state sees fit to keep some convicted murderers and gang peoples in jail untill they leave feet first in a pine suit

Not that thats anything to applaud, cos its the state. The quality of mercy is not strained it falleth as the gentle rain from.....no

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

hmm, I don't know. from my experience, people that elderly (90's and up) often seem remarkably different than their younger selves, and no doubt they are mentally and physically much frailer.
It seems almost like putting someone on trial for a crime someone else committed, if that makes any sense.
it is a shame that so many went unpunished. it just seems a bit too late, tbf.

I wonder if any of these Nazis ever let any aged Jews or Poles live, because the Jew or the Pole was very very old, and therefore should be given a free pass?

More likely the elderly were the first to be shot, or thrown out of the concentration camp train.


Some of these people orchestrated and/or participated in the killing of hundreds, thousands of people, by gassing them, starving them, leaving them in unheated accommodations in the dead of winter, hanging them, working them to death. They orchestated the deaths of children under three years old by putting them in warehouses, and then locking the door. That's not even mentioning the rape, the torture, the personal enrichment through the theft of the belongings of victims.

I agree that this current thing is too little too late; but why should people such as these ever be given a free pass? It's an abomination to think that they have been able to live this many years unmolested.

These people do not deserve to die peacefully in their sleep, at home, with family around. Decency requires that we don't subject them to the same abuses they put their victims through; but at least we can bring them to trial and imprison them.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And what about straightforward criminal "cold cases" from the 50s and 60s? that was how people like Bible John got caught who was murdering people until up until a few years ago. Should we just leave it because it was too long ago?

There would need to be a judgement on that - not necessarily, no. In this case, with the crime dating from the early 40s, committed in war and subsequently covered up in the chaos of post-war, my judgement is that it is too late, and the case of Demjanjuk confirms me in that. The second trial of John Demjanjuk was a disgrace, imo. I have little faith in justice systems at the best of times - but in these cases, I have no faith whatever in them.

 

[butchersapron]

You have absolute faith in them. Or you could not post your latest pomposity.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You have absolute faith in them. Or you could not post your latest pomposity.

you never do understand a thing I say.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

There would need to be a judgement on that - not necessarily, no. In this case, with the crime dating from the early 40s, committed in war and subsequently covered up in the chaos of post-war, my judgement is that it is too late, and the case of Demjanjuk confirms me in that. The second trial of John Demjanjuk was a disgrace, imo. I have little faith in justice systems at the best of times - but in these cases, I have no faith whatever in them.

The people who committed some of the worst atrocities of the last hundred years should never know peace. They should be hounded to the grave.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Six million Poles died in the Second World War. The Jewish population of Poland at the start of the war was 3.5 million. At the end of the war, it was 300,000.

Events of this magnitude can't be considered in the same light as the killings of the Boston Strangler or Son of Sam.

 

[frogwoman]

i'm probably coming across as a right old hang and flog em type on this thread so sorry about that. but i cant feel compassion for them. i can't. unless they're innocent or they were forced into it. but just because they are old? no, fuck that. it's just ... nazis. fuck feeling sorry for them.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

If some officer in some army in some fictitious time had entered the city of Bath and ordered all inhabitants killed, and that officer was still alive today, how many British people would be arguing that that officer should be allowed to live out his life peaceably with his family?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

i'm probably coming across as a right old hang and flog em type on this thread so sorry about that. but i cant feel compassion for them..

Why apologize for wanting to see these monsters brought to justice?

We aren't talking army generals whose troops killed other soldiers in war, with some collateral killing of civilians. We're talking the systematic elimination of millions of people by a group who considered their victims to be subhuman, worthy of nothing more than being worked to death as slaves, or just killed outright.

 

[Manter]

I don't think it is hatred, it's more like extreme insensitivity, the fact that it is everywhere as a subject of humour in the media/television etc, it is such a huge part of british culture with so many classic programmes such as Dad's Army etc, and not understanding that some "jokes" when they're not among mates can really hurt people. And I've made jokes about the whole 2 world wars 1 cup, "for you, ze vor iz over", etc, sort of thing in the past and had a lot of banter in the past with german mates who found it funny (and who told jew/english people jokes back that i'd not really accept off anyone else) but a lot of people don't and I'd never do it now to a random German person that I met in the street or something.

in countries like Russia and Poland, where they suffered a lot more than the UK did, and some people actually do still hate germans you don't seem to get all the jokes about the war because it is still a very raw and serious topic ime.

yeah, I've had German clients bring up the war, which left me a bit the first time it happened

You probably have as many reactions as there are people, tbh- Some Germans do still feel v strongly (I remember a German client sobbing at me because we were looking to move her job to Poland and her parents had been thrown out of Poland in 1946- again, left me speechless) and there is some hatred in other countries- some of the 'Germans are nazis and taking over Europe through the EU having failed in tanks' stuff recently has been, IMO, pretty unpleasant. But I suspect like so much of this stuff the ignorant will always misuse events.

 

[butchersapron]

If some officer in some army in some fictitious time had entered the city of Bath and ordered all inhabitants killed, and that officer was still alive today, how many British people would be arguing that that officer should be allowed to live out his life peaceably with his family?

Sometimes you just have to admire the idiocy.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Britain was bombarded in the war, but never suffered the ignominy of having an occupying army raping the local women, killing whomever, stealing whatever. Britons in Britain never had to work as slave laborers, nor were they tranported to death camps in overcrowded trains.

Maybe it's that fact that allows certain people to take the 'long view', to look at it all as an academic exercise.

 

[butchersapron]

The majestic sweep of history, 2000 years = you're a cunt.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's generally known that the Nazis committed widespread rape during the occupation of Poland. A less-known fact is that the Soviet army did the same thing as it advanced through Poland.

Switch Britain for Poland, such that almost all women born before, say, 1935, had been raped by invading soldiers.

Same 'live and let live', 'bygones be bygones' attitude then?

 

[butchersapron]

What country are you posting from and what people are you posting on behalf of?

 

[Manter]

I thought everyone knew the red army raped their way across Europe

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I thought everyone knew the red army raped their way across Europe

I think it's common knowledge that the Soviets raped German women. It's not such common knowledge that they did the same in Poland.

 

[Miss Caphat]

I wonder if any of these Nazis ever let any aged Jews or Poles live, because the Jew or the Pole was very very old, and therefore should be given a free pass?

More likely the elderly were the first to be shot, or thrown out of the concentration camp train.


Some of these people orchestrated and/or participated in the killing of hundreds, thousands of people, by gassing them, starving them, leaving them in unheated accommodations in the dead of winter, hanging them, working them to death. They orchestated the deaths of children under three years old by putting them in warehouses, and then locking the door. That's not even mentioning the rape, the torture, the personal enrichment through the theft of the belongings of victims.

I agree that this current thing is too little too late; but why should people such as these ever be given a free pass? It's an abomination to think that they have been able to live this many years unmolested.

These people do not deserve to die peacefully in their sleep, at home, with family around. Decency requires that we don't subject them to the same abuses they put their victims through; but at least we can bring them to trial and imprison them.

so since the Nazis did it, that gives us the moral imperative to do the same?
it's not about letting them have a free pass, it's about whether or not we can feel like we're not dishing out inhumane punishments ourselves. To me, it's more about preserving our human dignity than theirs, if that makes any sense.
But I think it depends on your point of view.
I guess for me, having known a few people in their mid to late 90's, I personally would not feel comfortable with people that age being subjected to the types of punishments reserved for genocidal maniacs, especially not so many years later.
that's all...I do understand the other side of the coin.

 

[Belushi]

Or the number of rapes committed by the other allied armies for that matter.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

so since the Nazis did it, that gives us the moral imperative to do the same?
it's not about letting them have a free pass, it's about whether or not we can feel like we're not dishing out inhumane punishments ourselves. To me, it's more about preserving our human dignity than theirs, if that makes any sense.
But I think it depends on your point of view.
I guess for me, having known a few people in their mid to late 90's, I personally would not feel comfortable with people that age being subjected to the types of punishments reserved for genocidal maniacs, especially not so many years later.
that's all...I do understand the other side of the coin.

I'm not suggesting we do the same. I don't want to see them raped, starved, hung by the wrists, with arms behind back. I don't want to immerse them in cold water, nor do I want to see them carrying large stones till they collapse and die.

I do want to see them tried and convicted if found guilty.

To me, if a person has organized and participated in an aktion wherein naked women with babies in arms are shot in a ditch, and then the babies are also shot - I don't care how old they are. They deserve no peace.

It's not some youthful folly that they grow out of. They wear a stain that can't be eradicated.

 

[frogwoman]

so since the Nazis did it, that gives us the moral imperative to do the same?
it's not about letting them have a free pass, it's about whether or not we can feel like we're not dishing out inhumane punishments ourselves. To me, it's more about preserving our human dignity than theirs, if that makes any sense.
But I think it depends on your point of view.
I guess for me, having known a few people in their mid to late 90's, I personally would not feel comfortable with people that age being subjected to the types of punishments reserved for genocidal maniacs, especially not so many years later.
that's all...I do understand the other side of the coin.

Nobody is doing the same as the Nazis.

How is putting war criminals on trial for crimes that they have got away with all of their lives the same as what they did? They murdered innocent people by industrial processes and they raped and shot them and they humiliated them before they died. they took pleasure out of it.

what about radovan karadzic? should they have just left him to wander around belgrade because it was so long ago and he was getting on a bit?


What about if one of these nazi war criminals was to be on the trial people are saying he should not have and then during the course of the trial or afterwards it was discovered that his DNA which was previously unknown matched a previously unsolved murder that another person was previously jailed for? Or if the publicity due to the trial means that somebody comes forward and says "I recognised this man because he raped me many years ago but i never said anything"?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Slobodan Milosevic was 60 when he went to trial. If he hadn't been caught, at what age should the world say 'forget about it, he's an old man'?

 

[Miss Caphat]

I'm not suggesting we do the same. I don't want to see them raped, starved, hung by the wrists, with arms behind back. I don't want to immerse them in cold water, nor do I want to see them carrying large stones till they collapse and die.

I do want to see them tried and convicted if found guilty.

To me, if a person has organized and participated in an aktion wherein naked women with babies in arms are shot in a ditch, and then the babies are also shot - I don't care how old they are. They deserve no peace.

It's not some youthful folly that they grow out of. They wear a stain that can't be eradicated.

I was responding to the top part of your post that seemed to be arguing that since the Nazis showed no mercy to the elderly we should do the same.
and please spare me the melodrama, I am fully aware of the atrocities the Nazis carried out.
anyways, I explained my reasons for thinking the way I do.
I think there are plenty of people out there who have committed much more recent atrocities who we should be going after, who are not going to be senile, bed-ridden, and/or drop dead from the stress of the trial before it's over.

 

[Spymaster]

I think there are plenty of people out there who have committed much more recent atrocities who we should be going after, who are not going to be senile, bed-ridden, and/or drop dead from the stress of the trial before it's over.

Get them too. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

 

[frogwoman]

sorry, didn't mean to go off on one at you like that Miss Caphat.