German poster campaign launched to find surviving Nazis

[Manter]

I'm not sure how much is out there that's specifically out there about Nazi mysticism - I could try and find out for you though. There is a book called "Black Sun" which Butchers recommended a while back but I haven't read it and that is supposed to be the most reputable work on the topic.

a lot of these are books I read years ago and haven't read since so I may well be missing stuff etc. And I am sure that someone will be along to tell me why they're crap

If you are looking for a book about the ideology of fascism and the role of "faith" and pseudo religious fervour in it that he describes, then John Weiss's "fascism" is very very good, anything by Roger Griffin and Mark Neocleous also cover the same ground.

Ian Kershaw's "Hitler: Hubris" and "Hitler: Nemesis" as well as, I think, both very reputable, well-researched biographies of Hitler which do a very good job of demolishing some of the crap that has built up around it (that he was gay, that he was jewish etc).

I have also read Michael Burleigh's "Death and Deliverance" which was about Aktion-T4, how it was implemented and the ideology behind doing it. I think his other books are also meant to be quite good but I get the feeling he may be a bit of a tory - not sure though.

Mason's "Nazism Fascism and the German Working Class" about working class Resistance in Germany and Saul Friedlander's "years of extermination" which is quite good as an account of the Shoah but from what I can remember (maybe I missed something while reading it) it doesn't really go into the detail of why anti-semitism became so popular in Germany and doesn't really give much "back story".

There's a book about Nazi doctors in Auschwitz with interviews of ex war criminals by Robert Jay Lifton which is all right, I do think that at times he may be a bit too sympathetic to his subjects though and it annoyed me how they spent loads of time pontificating about their moral dilemmas. It's quite interesting though but some of the descriptions are quite distressing.

There's plenty of propaganda material from the Nazis on this page (if you can stomach it) and you can read their mystical bollocks for yourself. He has also written a book on Streicher which I haven't read but which is meant to be good.

Joachim Fest who wrote a book about Nazi war criminals including a chapter on Alfred Rosenberg who he describes as somebody who was a misfit among the nazis and who launched some half hearted protest and appeared not to fully realise what his philosophies about "the jew" led to when he actually had any real power because he had spent most of his life up to his neck in shit books and never realised what his pseudo intellectual bullshit led to in real life.

There's another one I read ages ago about economics in the Third Reich, I can't remember the title though!

thx- not the ideology per se I am missing (I can rabbit happily about economic theories, lebensraum, blood libel, all sorts, but I have a bit of a blind spot about the occult stuff. All the nordic/templars/freemasons/runes/etc.... must confess that I usually speed read those chapters in books like Kershaw's . Rosenburg stuff looks like a good place to start and the stuff butchers recommended is now on the kindle

 

[butchersapron]

I'm very uneasy about this. As the trials of Demjanjuk showed, establishing any facts at such a distance in time is massively difficult, both for the prosecution and the defence. The possibilities of mistaken identity are huge, and even where identity can be established, the ability of the defence to put forward any kind of case is pretty much zero - it's not just most of the potential witnesses for the prosecution that are dead; so are most potential witnesses for the defence. As unpalatable as the idea may be to some, I think it's just too late. I also doubt the German state's right to do such a thing. On whose authority? Again, another problem with the distance in time - imo it is anachronistic for the German state to prosecute anyone for Nazi atrocities.

Maybe the weight of evidence doesn't rely on eye-witnesses and them being alive? Or do you think the holocaust is harder to prove as each day goes by? Three odd posts.

 

[Spymaster]

imo it is anachronistic for the German state to prosecute anyone for Nazi atrocities.

Why?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Maybe the weight of evidence doesn't rely on eye-witnesses and them being alive? Or do you think the holocaust is harder to prove as each day goes by? Three odd posts.

This isn't about 'proving the holocaust'. But certainly the ability to prove a particular person's role in it - particularly a person of lower rank - does diminish as the years go by.

 

[frogwoman]

I also doubt the German state's right to do such a thing. On whose authority?

wtf??

Haven't you seen all those documentaries about serial killers in the UK whose murders and rapes are solved 50/60 years later? Also if there have been any miscarriages of justice and people being jailed wrongly for collaboration or for being war criminals while a real war criminal got away with it and is still at large then we have a duty to clear their names even if they are dead.

 

[frogwoman]

on whose authority - what does that mean?

 

[butchersapron]

This isn't about 'proving the holocaust'. But certainly the ability to prove a particular person's role in it - particularly a person of lower rank - does diminish as the years go by.

No it doesn't. Please, don't be a historian. Please do learn how and what eye-witness testimony works and how that feeds into the writing of history.

 

[Manter]

I'm very uneasy about this. As the trials of Demjanjuk showed, establishing any facts at such a distance in time is massively difficult, both for the prosecution and the defence. The possibilities of mistaken identity are huge, and even where identity can be established, the ability of the defence to put forward any kind of case is pretty much zero - it's not just most of the potential witnesses for the prosecution that are dead; so are most potential witnesses for the defence. As unpalatable as the idea may be to some, I think it's just too late. I also doubt the German state's right to do such a thing. On whose authority? Again, another problem with the distance in time - imo it is anachronistic for the German state to prosecute anyone for Nazi atrocities.

it is difficult (another reason its a shame its been left so long...) but not impossible. There is reasonable doubt (or whatever its called in German) so a defence should be relatively easy, plus if you have proof you weren't where the prosecution said you were- campaign medals, copies of orders etc- you should be fine and it'll never come to court. Not sure it being tough is a reason not to try.

The german state has laws about crimes against humanity, and specifically about nazism, so the authority is pretty much the authority of being the government. Crimes took place under German rule so are subject to the authority of German law- a pretty easy one I'd have thought.

You're also a few steps ahead of the process: these adverts are by a US based charity. They are asking for tip offs. If they get any, they will investigate them and pass on the most credible/supportable to the German prosecuting authorities. They will then make a decision about whether to go forward. This isn't a state action, or a lynching- it is the very first step in a last ditch attempt to prosecute appalling crimes.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No it doesn't. Please, don't be a historian. Please do learn how and what eye-witness testimony works and how that feeds into the writing of history.

As the Demjanjuk case shows, it does become harder to prove a person's role and culpability as the years go by. The person standing here, now, in front of you.

 

[Manter]

As the Demjanjuk case shows, it does become harder to prove a person's role and culpability as the years go by. The person standing here, now, in front of you.

but they did prove it. They only brought that prosecution because they were pretty damn sure he was there and was complicit in vile activities, and a court of law looked at all the evidence and found him guilty. He decided to appeal, but the appeal wasn't heard because he died. As it stands he was tried and convicted.

e2a sorry, just checked and according to German law, as his appeal is outstanding he should be regarded as having no conviction. ie he is still innocent until the process has all had a chance to run out, and it never did, so he is innocent...

 

[butchersapron]

As the Demjanjuk case shows, it does become harder to prove a person's role and culpability as the years go by. The person standing here, now, in front of you.

No, it shows that putting names to faces after time is hard. Why would you think that all future nazi trials would be based on such evidence?

 

[butchersapron]

but they did prove it. They only brought that prosecution because they were pretty damn sure he was there and was complicit in vile activities, and a court of law looked at all the evidence and found him guilty. He decided to appeal, but the appeal wasn't heard because he died. As it stands he was tried and convicted.

Almost like there was evidence other then eye-witnessery that they could rely on..

 

[frogwoman]

I'm very uneasy about this. As the trials of Demjanjuk showed, establishing any facts at such a distance in time is massively difficult, both for the prosecution and the defence. The possibilities of mistaken identity are huge, and even where identity can be established, the ability of the defence to put forward any kind of case is pretty much zero - it's not just most of the potential witnesses for the prosecution that are dead; so are most potential witnesses for the defence. As unpalatable as the idea may be to some, I think it's just too late. I also doubt the German state's right to do such a thing. On whose authority? Again, another problem with the distance in time - imo it is anachronistic for the German state to prosecute anyone for Nazi atrocities.

we have a duty to the victims - whether they are the ones who died in the shoah or in operation t4 or in hitler's "purges" of communists etc to track down and punish their murderers or anyone else they may have killed during or after the war and got away with because of the complicity/negligence of the state and whoever else, if they cannot be found to fill them with fear so they live in terror about being caught, by someone who remembers them and knows them and knows their crime and knows exactly what they did, they must live in terror about it until they die, no matter who they are, they can never forget about what they did for one second, they can never truly enjoy the things they denied to others, they can go out without scanning the crowd for that person who knows and is going to find them, they can never rest soundly in their beds. to send a message that this stuff never goes away and they WILL pay for it. why should they live like a normal person until they've paid for what they've done? their victims can't live happy peaceful lives and many of their descendants won't be able to either, so why the fuck should they?

if someone in my family was murdered in such circumstances i know i'd want that. eta well i can't "know" but I am pretty sure.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I agree 'we' have a duty to the victims. I personally do not think that we honour them by using the 'tools of the oppressor' though. I believe in and have experience of this, therefore do not think those that are/maybe caught in the 'crossfire' are a necessary sacrifice.Hence my earlier comment regarding 'unpalatability'.

I know that limits 'us', I feel this very deeply though and understand/appreciate the two positions on this thread regardless.

 

[frogwoman]

I agree 'we' have a duty to the victims. I personally do not think that we honour them by using the 'tools of the oppressor' though. I believe in and have experience of this, therefore do not think those that are/maybe caught in the 'crossfire' are a necessary sacrifice.Hence my earlier comment regarding 'unpalatability'.

I know that limits 'us', I feel this very deeply though and understand/appreciate the two positions on this thread regardless.

So bring them to court. Let's put it another way - this doesn't have to be about vengeance. Earlier on the thread examples were given of people who were forced to take part in Nazi atrocities who may have been afraid to speak about what they had to do and have felt terrible about it for the rest of their lives. If they are able to speak to people about it then hopefully the case wouldn't be brought to trial if they were actually forced and they could be given some sort of closure. And the real criminals would be exposed.

 

[Treacle Toes]

So bring them to court.

Please be clear hun, I absolutely support the idea, I can't though sit comfortably supporting this poster campaign.

Let's put it another way - this doesn't have to be about vengeance. Earlier on the thread examples were given of people who were forced to take part in Nazi atrocities who may have been afraid to speak about what they had to do and have felt terrible about it for the rest of their lives. If they are able to speak to people about it then hopefully the case wouldn't be brought to trial if they were actually forced and they could be given some sort of closure.

I am not arguing, I am listening and agree on this point.

 

[frogwoman]

i'd bet a hell of a lot of unsolved rapes and murders post 1945 would then come to light during these trials too. perhaps as the truth about these people was exposed in court the police would start to put evidence of their post war activities together and people who had been victims of them since the war would be able to come forward.

leopards/spots etc.

 

[Manter]

I agree 'we' have a duty to the victims. I personally do not think that we honour them by using the 'tools of the oppressor' though. I believe in and have experience of this, therefore do not think those that are/maybe caught in the 'crossfire' are a necessary sacrifice.Hence my earlier comment regarding 'unpalatability'.

I know that limits 'us', I feel this very deeply though and understand/appreciate the two positions on this thread regardless.

sorry, I don't understand- what do you mean by tools of the oppressor? And who do you mean by caught in the crossfire?

Not being arsey, genuinely don't understand!

 

[frogwoman]

potentially if it was done right - it could a whole lot about the complicity of the german state and many other states as well.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Manter I posted this earlier which I think explains what I mean a bit better, have company at the mo so apologies for not giving the thread/discussion/your question more attention/time just now.

This poster campaign is just as unpalatable as the anti-immigrant truck driving around encouraging people to imagine every foreigner as an illegal immigrant IMO.

 

[frogwoman]

Why is it unpalatable?

if you kill thousands of people in cold blood because of "loyalty to the fuhrer" if you humiliate them and mock them as they are about to be killed, if you force them to dig their own graves and dispose of the bodies of the other people that have been killed, if you perform lethal "experiments" on them because you are the willing tool of a regime that has encouraged the use of propaganda to make everyone view them as slaves or as a "bacillus" that has to be removed from the "body" and you go along with this and you act on this and then after the war you are protected by the state that doesn't give a fuck, you are helped to escape by other governments and you live to 80 or 90, and never pay for what you did, after living a long life being protected by others around you, other networks of scum, state agents, churches, whatever, never once having to face what you did let alone pay for it, then you should not expect any sympathy on the day you finally get what you deserve.

I don't support the death penalty by the way. But I think their (and other war criminals in other wars) last days should be as miserable as possible.

That probably makes me a cunt but when it comes to Nazis I don't care.

 

[weltweit]

It will be interesting to see if they catch anyone as a result of this campaign.

The young Germans I knew / know are wholly fed up of being associated with the views attitudes and actions of their ancestors, perhaps as the generations now pass, and the remains of Nazism are caught or die out, it will be possible for young Germans not to be expected to feel ashamed anymore, especially when they travel.

 

[frogwoman]

I certainly don't hold any German people responsible for Nazism weltweit. the only ones responsible are the nazis themselves.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It will be interesting to see if they catch anyone as a result of this campaign.
.

And whether anyone caught is ever convicted of anything. My guess is that it will have little effect. It is Americans running the campaign. Not sure what kind of reaction most Germans will have to it. Either they know for sure that someone they know is among the 60, in which case they will certainly already be complicit in keeping them safe, or they don't.

I distrust both the methods and the motives of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. This is from their website:

The Campus Outreach division was created to forge strategic alliances with campus groups, faculty, staff and students, to foster a new awareness of contemporary human rights, social justice and ethics in today’s college and university students. By exposing the truth behind anti-Semitism, hate and terrorism, by promoting human rights and dignity, by standing firmly with Israel, and by celebrating our unique identity as Jews, campus outreach is creating a strong and effective presence on campuses nationwide and giving a voice to the next generation of global human rights activists.

They both promote human rights and dignity and stand firmly with Israel. No mean feat.

 

[DotCommunist]

No more than anyone should be expected for the vicious putting down of the mau mau uprising other than those who actually did it. Sod collective guilt.

 

[frogwoman]

this isn't about them. i want the same thing for israeli war criminals. the fact that they don't is neither here nor there. will "standing with israel" affect the outcome of anyone who comes forward/who is apprehended and locked up (or not, if they are innocent, or there is insufficient evidence)?

 

[weltweit]

I certainly don't hold any German people responsible for Nazism weltweit. the only ones responsible are the nazis themselves.

I am not suggesting anyone on this thread does it, but as a phenomenon it definitely exists. I have spoken to Germans who holidayed in France and had to return home such was the level of hatred.

Perhaps this change of the generations, the dying out of the WWII Germans, might free modern Germans of this hatred.

 

[frogwoman]

I am not suggesting anyone on this thread does it, but as a phenomenon it definitely exists. I have spoken to Germans who holidayed in France and had to return home such was the level of hatred.

Perhaps this change of the generations, the dying out of the WWII Germans, might free modern Germans of this hatred.

I don't think it is hatred, it's more like extreme insensitivity, the fact that it is everywhere as a subject of humour in the media/television etc, it is such a huge part of british culture with so many classic programmes such as Dad's Army etc, and not understanding that some "jokes" when they're not among mates can really hurt people. And I've made jokes about the whole 2 world wars 1 cup, "for you, ze vor iz over", etc, sort of thing in the past and had a lot of banter in the past with german mates who found it funny (and who told jew/english people jokes back that i'd not really accept off anyone else) but a lot of people don't and I'd never do it now to a random German person that I met in the street or something.

in countries like Russia and Poland, where they suffered a lot more than the UK did, and some people actually do still hate germans you don't seem to get all the jokes about the war because it is still a very raw and serious topic ime.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

this isn't about them.

The poster campaign is about them. The reward they offer for information is about them.

Simon Wiesenthal was a deeply flawed man, but I cannot help but admire his tenacity, and by fuck he had the right to do what he did. But I don't extend that courtesy to the foundation that bears his name.

 

[frogwoman]

The poster campaign is about them. The reward they offer for information is about them.

Simon Wiesenthal was a deeply flawed man, but I cannot help but admire his tenacity, and by fuck he had the right to do what he did. But I don't extend that courtesy to the foundation that bears his name.

so would it be any different in your view if they were also offering rewards for israeli 1948 war criminals? if not then why make it about them?