German poster campaign launched to find surviving Nazis

[Pickman's model]

oh dear. you seem to not understand that when you put an adjective in front of a noun sometimes it
alters the noun's meaning.
this isn't a fucking competition.
some people believe this is closure. I don't. we can agree to disagree.

you seem not to understand that a hollow victory, like a pyrrhick victory, is a victory nonetheless.

 

[Miss Caphat]

a hollow victory, like a pyrrhick victory, is a victory nonetheless.

do you pride yourself on being annoying or what?

ok, false victory, how about that.

 

[Pickman's model]

do you pride yourself on being annoying or what?

ok, false victory, how about that.

in what context?

 

[Miss Caphat]

ok then....next?

 

[Pickman's model]

back in the 60s or maybe early 70s the east germans put out a 'brown book' of lots of nazis - many senior - who were alive and well and doing very nicely out of the federal republick of germany. do any of the people currently under consideration appear in that august tome?

 

[cdg]

do you pride yourself on being annoying or what.

Yes he does.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes he does.

Great post, you think monkey chanting black players isn't racist and the BNP are your party of choice. How did you survive the recent bans? Think your time is over.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes he does.

is there anything you pride yourself on?

 

[cdg]

is there anything you pride yourself on?

Pedantry

 

[Pickman's model]

Pedantry

but, like so much you turn your mind to, you're crap at it

 

[cdg]

but you're crap at it

Im still learning.

 

[Miss Caphat]

this is helpful.

 

[frogwoman]

One small caveat- towards the end of the war, there were conscripts to the SS- mainly because it absorbed other units, and on the Eastern Front, (ie other units on eastern front 'became part of' SS units- and some Germans were conscripted to the Eastern Front and by default were dumped in SS units) but that's one of the reasons why due process/investigation is so important. Completely agree with you up to '44 though

Aye I know that kids were conscripted to the eastern front at ages 11-12 and forced to fight the nazis' war. They're not war criminals, the ordinary german soldiers and airmen were not war criminals either. But if you, as an adult, willingly took part in massacres of civilians because "you swore an oath to the Fuhrer" then you are scum. Simple fucking as.

But IIRC nobody was ever killed or even punished for not following orders relating to the final solution. There were people iirc who were assigned to the Einsatzkommandos etc who after a short time did not obey their orders or refused to participate in any of it and were just sent home or assigned somewhere else. I am willing to be corrected on this of course as there may be isolated cases where it happened but my understanding is that it simply isn't true that these people were forced to kill jews, gypsies, etc or to work in the camps. At best they simply didn't care, at worst they believed wholeheartedly in the ideology of National Socialism and enjoyed what they were doing.

I think ViolentPanda knows more about this than I do.

 

[frogwoman]

iirc in hans boll's autobiography 'what's to become of the boy' he says something along the lines of a member of every german family had to join a party formation, the sa, ss etc etc. so presumably there were *some* people in the ss (allegemeine as opposed to waffen) who had gone in for other reasons than wanting to gas, shoot or otherwise extinguish jews and other 'anti-social' elements.

There were some people who were assigned to things like the T4 centres or to work in auschwitz as doctors doing experiments and were so revolted by it that they left and in some cases ended up trying to oppose the Nazis. There were probably police etc who felt that way about their SS/gestapo membership. But if you didn't leave and you carried on participating in it then you are a cunt whether you did it one week ago, one year ago or 80 years ago.

 

[frogwoman]

And for any kids who were forced to participate/watch killings etc then having this investigated properly and sensitively could help to bring them some closure that they were not to blame for what they did and bring the individuals that were to justice.

 

[Manter]

But IIRC nobody was ever killed or even punished for not following orders relating to the final solution. There were people iirc who were assigned to the Einsatzkommandos etc who after a short time did not obey their orders or refused to participate in any of it and were just sent home or assigned somewhere else. I am willing to be corrected on this of course as there may be isolated cases where it happened but my understanding is that it simply isn't true that these people were forced to kill jews, gypsies, etc or to work in the camps. At best they simply didn't care, at worst they believed wholeheartedly in the ideology of National Socialism and enjoyed what they were doing.

I think ViolentPanda knows more about this than I do.

I seem to remember that being assigned elsewhere was often the eastern front and certain death. But not sure- need to scrabble in a box to find my papers, everything is still packed

God, I wish I still studied history full time. And that there was a decent living to be made studying history! This stuff fascinates me

 

[ViolentPanda]

Aye I know that kids were conscripted to the eastern front at ages 11-12 and forced to fight the nazis' war. They're not war criminals, the ordinary german soldiers and airmen were not war criminals either. But if you, as an adult, willingly took part in massacres of civilians because "you swore an oath to the Fuhrer" then you are scum. Simple fucking as.

But IIRC nobody was ever killed or even punished for not following orders relating to the final solution. There were people iirc who were assigned to the Einsatzkommandos etc who after a short time did not obey their orders or refused to participate in any of it and were just sent home or assigned somewhere else. I am willing to be corrected on this of course as there may be isolated cases where it happened but my understanding is that it simply isn't true that these people were forced to kill jews, gypsies, etc or to work in the camps. At best they simply didn't care, at worst they believed wholeheartedly in the ideology of National Socialism and enjoyed what they were doing.

I think ViolentPanda knows more about this than I do.

That was the case for people tasked to Aktion T4 and the like, and the various einsatzkommando, but not, for example, to members of the Wehrmacht who "swept up" after the SS in Ukraine, the Baltic states etc. Members of the Wehrmacht, being bound by the despicable oath of personal loyalty to Hitler, rather than to the Reich, were liable to summary drumhead court martial (often followed either by execution, or a commuted sentence to a penal battalion) for transgressing their oath/disobeying orders.
So it's a bit more nuanced than killing people because you swore an oath. It's also about the fact that if you were military and transgressed your oath to Adolf, your family would suffer too, from having your heritage investigated, to having your children put under special measures at school, or expelled, to being sent to Coventry. If you were executed, your family could expect "interviews" by the GeStaPo and possibly shipping to a concentration camp.

 

[Spymaster]

That you think they would not show you compassion is not a reason for you not to show compassion.

Compassion? For fucking nazis?

Are you taking the piss?

 

[frogwoman]

That was the case for people tasked to Aktion T4 and the like, and the various einsatzkommando, but not, for example, to members of the Wehrmacht who "swept up" after the SS in Ukraine, the Baltic states etc. Members of the Wehrmacht, being bound by the despicable oath of personal loyalty to Hitler, rather than to the Reich, were liable to summary drumhead court martial (often followed either by execution, or a commuted sentence to a penal battalion) for transgressing their oath/disobeying orders.
So it's a bit more nuanced than killing people because you swore an oath. It's also about the fact that if you were military and transgressed your oath to Adolf, your family would suffer too, from having your heritage investigated, to having your children put under special measures at school, or expelled, to being sent to Coventry. If you were executed, your family could expect "interviews" by the GeStaPo and possibly shipping to a concentration camp.

All the more reason for this stuff to go to trial and establish the truth then.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I seem to remember that being assigned elsewhere was often the eastern front and certain death. But not sure- need to scrabble in a box to find my papers, everything is still packed

Yep. Usually you were re-tasked to a Strafbattalion, where you'd invariably serve at the most dangerous part of the front, often as an unarmed labourer if fighting was lulling, and as the van of any attack or the butt of any defence during fighting. Incredibly, a couple of thousand "graduates" of the penal battalions survived the eastern front and made it back to German soil.

God, I wish I still studied history full time. And that there was a decent living to be made studying history! This stuff fascinates me

You learn about one thing, which leads you to another, which leads you to another...
Imagine getting paid to do that!

 

[ViolentPanda]

All the more reason for this stuff to go to trial and establish the truth then.

Absolutely. I'd go as far as to say (to borrow a handleful of clichés ) that history demands that we try to establish the truth as far as possible. The more we know about motivation and justification, the better-armed we are for the next time (of which there have already been too many since WW2).

 

[frogwoman]

ViolentPanda But I remember reading about the Einsatzkommandos that there was a very high "turnover" and a very high level of alcoholism, suicide etc among the people who were tasked with doing it and that a very high proportion of them were taken ill or discharged or sent somewhere else. And that some senior SS officers complained about the effect this work was having on the men (which is one of the reasons why gas chambers were invented) and that if they refused to do it they weren't punished.

Mind you that was the SS and not the Wehrmacht. It's maybe a bit more understandable with those consequences but they should still be punished because plenty of people refused to carry out their orders and took huge risks.

 

[frogwoman]

That was the case for people tasked to Aktion T4 and the like, and the various einsatzkommando, but not, for example, to members of the Wehrmacht who "swept up" after the SS in Ukraine, the Baltic states etc. Members of the Wehrmacht, being bound by the despicable oath of personal loyalty to Hitler, rather than to the Reich, were liable to summary drumhead court martial (often followed either by execution, or a commuted sentence to a penal battalion) for transgressing their oath/disobeying orders.
So it's a bit more nuanced than killing people because you swore an oath. It's also about the fact that if you were military and transgressed your oath to Adolf, your family would suffer too, from having your heritage investigated, to having your children put under special measures at school, or expelled, to being sent to Coventry. If you were executed, your family could expect "interviews" by the GeStaPo and possibly shipping to a concentration camp.

Yeah it's just that whenever you get some scum cunt from the SS who's trying to excuse what they did it's always "you don't understand! I had to! I swore an oath!" Loyalty till death, blood and honour, all that shit.

 

[butchersapron]

Don't get many ss in eastville tbh.

 

[ViolentPanda]

ViolentPanda But I remember reading about the Einsatzkommandos that there was a very high "turnover" and a very high level of alcoholism, suicide etc among the people who were tasked with doing it and that a very high proportion of them were taken ill or discharged or sent somewhere else. And that some senior SS officers complained about the effect this work was having on the men (which is one of the reasons why gas chambers were invented) and that if they refused to do it they weren't punished.

Mind you that was the SS and not the Wehrmacht. It's maybe a bit more understandable with those consequences but they should still be punished.

Yes. Bear in mind that the einsatzkommandos came under the leadership of the SS, even those members who were civil police, medics etc. It was acknowledged (by Himmler himself) that while a German should be ruthless in pursuit of the reich's goals, that the SS were human, with human sensibilities, and only those who could bear the work should do it. The Wehrmacht had no such get-out from being sickened by their task, which is why I'm always a bit "fuck off" to people who glibly trot out "the wehrmacht willingly did this or that in the east". The officers may well have been willing, especially the staff officers, safely away from the possibility of having to weild the machine gun themselves, but the soldiers were under orders, and had no constitutional or legislative escape clause from their duty, unless they counted execution.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yeah it's just that whenever you get some scum cunt from the SS who's trying to excuse what they did it's always "you don't understand! I had to! I swore an oath!" Loyalty till death, blood and honour, all that shit.

The SS had less excuse than regular soldiers. They were a select formation of ideological/political as well as military soldiers. They knew what their loyalty oaths entailed in a way that a lot of new recruits to the three services didn't.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Don't get many ss in eastville tbh.

That's what they want you to believe.

 

[frogwoman]

So if they were forced to under threat of death then hopefully the investigations will establish this (assuming they're not going to fit someone up obviously and let a real cunt get away with it) and if somebody was forced to do it and has spent their whole life a broken man because of it then hopefully the case won't go to trial. And determine who ordered these deaths and whether they are still alive.

 

[frogwoman]

If somebody was really forced to do it and has spent the rest of their lives feeling shit and tormented by what they did, and is willing to help with the enquiries, then I wouldn't want them to suffer even more but I don't see why people who willingly signed up and willingly did that stuff, agreed with that stuff, etc, knowing exactly what it entailed should get away with it just because it was 60 or 70 years ago.

 

[DotCommunist]

The SS had less excuse than regular soldiers. They were a select formation of ideological/political as well as military soldiers. They knew what their loyalty oaths entailed in a way that a lot of new recruits to the three services didn't.

I'd be right in saying that post victory for the allied forces it was the SS who were branded specifically a criminal grouping right? as opposed to tank reg, footsloggers and so on who were while not absolved, were not under a blanket criminal charge for being part of the org? I may have that wrong, I'm no expert but it rings a bell

e2a

and by 'not absolved' I mean not immune from answering for shit if they did it whereas the SS were up on a charge because they were ss