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German poster campaign launched to find surviving Nazis

dunno, what do you think?<snip>
IMHO there doesn't need to be fire, demons, and various torture implements; a lot of these people would more than adequately torture themselves if all the excuses they'd made to themselves were stripped away and they understood exactly what they'd done.
 
Two cases earlier this year saw two men in their 90s charged with their role in enabling mass atrocities to take place. In June, Laszlo Lajos Csatari, 98, was charged in Hungary with organizing the deportation of some 12,000 Jews to death camps while a former Auschwitz guard named Hans Lipschis, 93, was arrested in Germany under suspicion of complicity in mass murder. Lipschis, who was a cook, contends that the only role he played was in the kitchen.

The campaign has left some experts unimpressed. German-Israeli historian Michael Wolffson told German station Deutschlandradio Kultur that “on the contrary, the effect will rather be to trigger pity towards people who deserve no pity,” adding that “it's downright disrespectful and shameless” to offer so much for dangerous criminals.

A fellow Nazi hunter named Serge Klarsfeld also disagreed, saying that the 11th-hour bid for justice “left a bitter aftertaste.”

“At the time when it was possible to try the criminals, when there was evidence, Germany failed to do its work,” he said.
http://rt.com/news/nazi-hunting-campaign-germany-464/
2nazi-hunters-simon-wiesenthal.si.jpg
 
I'm very uneasy about this. As the trials of Demjanjuk showed, establishing any facts at such a distance in time is massively difficult, both for the prosecution and the defence. The possibilities of mistaken identity are huge, and even where identity can be established, the ability of the defence to put forward any kind of case is pretty much zero - it's not just most of the potential witnesses for the prosecution that are dead; so are most potential witnesses for the defence. As unpalatable as the idea may be to some, I think it's just too late. I also doubt the German state's right to do such a thing. On whose authority? Again, another problem with the distance in time - imo it is anachronistic for the German state to prosecute anyone for Nazi atrocities.

You're labouring under the misapprehension that direct witness testimony is necessary, and implicityly implying that prior testimony given in the aftermath of the war is somehow not good enough.
Wrong, on both counts.
 
I think it's common knowledge that the Soviets raped German women. It's not such common knowledge that they did the same in Poland.

I'd have to disagree with you there. The resentments of the peoples of what became the various Soviet satellites were pretty well-recorded from the end of the war onward, including by the UN body tasked with dealing with post-war refugees. They knew about the widespread rape.

Small factlet: The Red Army didn't have a specific punishment for the rape of conquered civilian females. It was basically down to the commander's discretion, so records are patchy or non-existent even where they weren't "sanitised" by the NKVD.
The Wehrmacht had a specific procedure. Court-martial, with the 2 most frequent punishments being remand to the custody of a strafbattalion for service, or execution.
 
You're labouring under the misapprehension that direct witness testimony is necessary, and implicityly implying that prior testimony given in the aftermath of the war is somehow not good enough.
Wrong, on both counts.
I don't want to see another farce like the Demjanjuk trial. Also, he was convicted in the end simply for being present, although the evidence even for that is shaky, and given the number of false and forged documents lying around from that time, going merely on written records is fraught with danger, as Demjanjuk illustrates.
 
Perhaps the last gasp aspect of this poster campaign is more to do with the Wiesenthal centre losing its reason d'etre rather than Nazi war criminals dying out from old age. What will become of the Wiesenthal centre in ten years time when there are no more Nazis to hunt?

The Weisenthal Center has been moving away from "Nazi hunting" since the 1970s. It hasn't been their raison d'etre for a long time.
 
I don't want to see another farce like the Demjanjuk trial. Also, he was convicted in the end simply for being present, although the evidence even for that is shaky, and given the number of false and forged documents lying around from that time, going merely on written records is fraught with danger, as Demjanjuk illustrates.

Demjanjuk's records were shaky because he was a foreign auxiliary, rather than a German national. Many of the extant records pertaining to SS and Nazi party membership by German nationals cross-confirm through regional and national registers and records, as do surviving service records at national and battalion level.
 
Thought that was Robert Elfords Devils Guard series unless that was one of hiCharles Whittings pseudonyms of course.

What always struck me is odd when I used to sell second hand pb was his all his kessler stuff would sell as soon as it was put out but the stuff he published under whitting from a British perspective you couldnt give away.
 
Well they wouldn't, given who they are, so it would have to be some other organisation doing it for different motivation, as part of a different campaign. I think I understand Rutita's comparison with the anti-immigrant poster campaign. If not, then my point of comparison would be this - that it is being run by the government matters, who it is being run by and why they are running it are an essential part of what it is.

Given that they are committed in their mission statement to 'stand firmly with Israel', I'd be interested to know what they mean exactly by 'the truth behind anti-Semitism'.



that isn't really answering my question though. If a Palestinian organisation based in the US was going to try and arrest all Israeli war criminals from the foundation of Israel in 1948 and launched a campaign to do it, would you support them trying to do it?

I would. why should somebody who took part in war crimes get away because they're old?

and how old should the "cut-off point" of not arresting a criminal because of their age be? 60? 70? 75? that would make bringing jimmy savile and other TV personalities from the 70s a bit of a problem wouldn't it? Oh well it was a long time ago and he provided the nation with a well loved source of entertainment, water under the bridge :rolleyes:

I also don't see what arresting people who took part in the holocaust has got to do with supporting Israel. the two are two completely different things?
 
that isn't really answering my question though. If a Palestinian organisation based in the US was going to try and arrest all Israeli war criminals from the foundation of Israel in 1948 and launched a campaign to do it, would you support them trying to do it?
No, I wouldn't. For lots of reasons.

I would fully support such a group in trying to investigate and publicise what happened at that time.
 
back in the 60s or maybe early 70s the east germans put out a 'brown book' of lots of nazis - many senior - who were alive and well and doing very nicely out of the federal republick of germany. do any of the people currently under consideration appear in that august tome?

Altogether 1,800 West German persons and their past were covered: especially 15 Ministers and state secretaries, 100 admirals and generals, 828 judges or state lawyers and high law officers, 245 officials of the Foreign Office and of embassies and consulates in leading position, 297 high police officers and officers of the Verfassungsschutz. The first brown book was seized in West Germany — on Frankfurt Book Fair — by judicial resolution.
The contents of this book received substantial attention in West Germany and other countries. The West German government stated, at that time, that it was "all falsification". Later on, however, it became clear that the data of the book were largely correct. Hanns Martin Schleyer, for example, really had been a member of the SS. The book was translated into 10 languages. Amongst the reactions to it was also a similar West German book of the same name, covering the topic of Nazis re-emerging in high-level positions in the GDR.[1]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braunbuch
 
Aye I know that kids were conscripted to the eastern front at ages 11-12 and forced to fight the nazis' war. They're not war criminals, the ordinary german soldiers and airmen were not war criminals either. But if you, as an adult, willingly took part in massacres of civilians because "you swore an oath to the Fuhrer" then you are scum. Simple fucking as.

But IIRC nobody was ever killed or even punished for not following orders relating to the final solution. There were people iirc who were assigned to the Einsatzkommandos etc who after a short time did not obey their orders or refused to participate in any of it and were just sent home or assigned somewhere else. I am willing to be corrected on this of course as there may be isolated cases where it happened but my understanding is that it simply isn't true that these people were forced to kill jews, gypsies, etc or to work in the camps. At best they simply didn't care, at worst they believed wholeheartedly in the ideology of National Socialism and enjoyed what they were doing.

I think ViolentPanda knows more about this than I do.


It is controversial but the book 'Hitlers Willing Executioners' argues that there were many many ordinary wermacht who carried out appalling massacres and individual acts of brutality, and more literature since...
 
A book laughed at by serious historians immediately it was published. And it's argument was a whole lot cruder than your summary, and concerns . It's a joke of a work.
 
A book laughed at by serious historians immediately it was published. And it's argument was a whole lot cruder than your summary, and concerns . It's a joke of a work.


It argues that there is an innate tendency in the germans towards anti-semitism. Not fucking on.
 
It is controversial but the book 'Hitlers Willing Executioners' argues that there were many many ordinary wermacht who carried out appalling massacres and individual acts of brutality, and more literature since...

Book or no book, there's not much dispute that the Wehrmacht carried out massacres of jews and others etc.
 
Was it the same punishment for raping Jewish women, or Russians, who they also considered to be subhuman? I'd be surprised.

Under the "racial hygiene" laws, civilian and military penalties for raping a member of the so-called untermenschen were equally severe as those for raping an "Aryan" woman, and that's if you reached sentencing, given the SS penchant for summary execution or "we shot him as he tried to escape, honest" in such cases.
 
It is controversial but the book 'Hitlers Willing Executioners' argues that there were many many ordinary wermacht who carried out appalling massacres and individual acts of brutality, and more literature since...

It's not a particularly good book. It makes arguments based on contentious and sometimes very counter-intuitive readings of known history, as well as the author making psychological attributions with regard to "Germans" that have no place in any psychology except the "cod" sort.
 
Didn't expect to link to the Sun, but they have details of some of the Nazis sought :
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...on-last-chance-to-bring-nazis-to-justice.html

Typically of The Sun, there's some bad journalism in there.

1) Sachsenhausen was a concentration camp.
2) Gross Rosen was a concentration camp.
3) There was no Warsaw death camp. There was the ghetto, where tens of thousands of people who were concentrated there, died.
4) There was more than one Einsatzgrup "working" in Ukraine. They don't distinguish which einsatzkommando Oberlande served in/with.
5) Millions of Jews were killed in death camps, in transit to death camps, and in ghettoes. Relatively few were killed in concentration camps, which were more often used for the detention of political and religious prisoners, where more died of disease than actively from execution, and whose occupants were still (somewhat) subject to the rule of law (as far as that ever went with the Nazis).
 
Book or no book, there's not much dispute that the Wehrmacht carried out massacres of jews and others etc.

You're right. There isn't.
"Hitler's Willing Executioners", however, builds an entire psychological edifice around a German anti-Semitism that it claims pre-exist Nazism, and to be an essential part of the German psyche. While that's always been true of sections of the German population, to attribute it to the entire population is speculative at best, dangerously wrong at worst.
 
Under the "racial hygiene" laws, civilian and military penalties for raping a member of the so-called untermenschen were equally severe as those for raping an "Aryan" woman, and that's if you reached sentencing, given the SS penchant for summary execution or "we shot him as he tried to escape, honest" in such cases.


Virtually unexplored until recently, sexualized violence in the Holocaust took many forms, faces, and insidious paths. Among the more than 6 million Jews killed were an unknown number of women, probably thousands, who were raped—in camps, in hiding, in ghettos. The perpetrators were Nazis, fellow Jews, and those who hid Jews. There are few records of this particular form of suffering for many reasons, including no records being kept of rape, that few women survived, and that Nazis were specifically forbidden from sexually touching Jewish women because of race defilement laws called Rassenchande—hence, some scholars have been loath to believe sexualized violence was extensive.

But individuals didn’t always follow the higher ranks, secretly raping Jewish women against policy—in camps, in private slavery in their homes, and in brothels set up for fellow prisoners. And we know this form of violence was rampant from testimonies of survivors and their relatives, as told in the 2010 book Sexual Violence Against Jewish Women During the Holocaust, edited by Sonja M. Hedgepeth and Rochelle G. Saidel (referred to below as Sexual Violence).

http://www.womenundersiegeproject.org/conflicts/profile/holocaust

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/06/24/holocaust.rape/index.html
 
You're right. There isn't.
"Hitler's Willing Executioners", however, builds an entire psychological edifice around a German anti-Semitism that it claims pre-exist Nazism, and to be an essential part of the German psyche. While that's always been true of sections of the German population, to attribute it to the entire population is speculative at best, dangerously wrong at worst.

I haven't read that book, but from what I've gathered, anti-Semitism was widespread in Germany before the war, as it was throughout Europe.

That isn't to say that they wanted to see something like the Holocaust happen, but anti-jewish sentiment was abundant.
 
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