German poster campaign launched to find surviving Nazis

[ViolentPanda]

I haven't read that book, but from what I've gathered, anti-Semitism was widespread in Germany before the war, as it was throughout Europe.

That isn't to say that they wanted to see something like the Holocaust happen, but anti-jewish sentiment was abundant.

And as many posters including myself have made clear, history also shows us that Germany emancipated German Jews decades before the French or the Poles did (the Jews of the Tsarist Russian empire had to wait for 1917 for full Jewish emancipation). Yes, there was anti-Jewish sentiment, but it was no worse than in other European states, and better than in some.

 

[butchersapron]

I haven't read that book, but from what I've gathered, anti-Semitism was widespread in Germany before the war, as it was throughout Europe.

That isn't to say that they wanted to see something like the Holocaust happen, but anti-jewish sentiment was abundant.

No it wasn't. Germany was one of the least anti-semitic countries in europe - despite the existence of noisy but peripheral anti-semitic groups from the 1870s onwards

 

[frogwoman]

besides that argument essentially accepts Nazi views that the Jews and Germans were implacable racial enemies and that there was something in the the blood of the real Aryan that makes them hate Jews (and that there was something in Jews' blood that made them hate Germans)

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The works you quote say nothing contrary to what I've posted on this thread - it happened, it was against German law and it was prosecuted severely by the German authorities (civil and military) where it was uncovered.

Good for you, showing your googling skills, though.

Yep, I googled it. Wouldn't have uncovered that book if I hadn't. Finding new things via google isn't really a sign of weakness nor failure.

it was prosecuted severely by the German authorities (civil and military) where it was uncovered.

The law was on the books; I don't think it was applied all that often.

Like I said - if it were, most of the Wehrmacht that went through Russia would have been put before a firing squad for raping millions of Russian women.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

No it wasn't. Germany was one of the least anti-semitic countries in europe - despite the existence of noisy but peripheral anti-semitic groups from the 1870s onwards

It had one of the smaller Jewish populations in Europe, that's true.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

besides that argument essentially accepts Nazi views that the Jews and Germans were implacable racial enemies and that there was something in the the blood of the real Aryan that makes them hate Jews (and that there was something in Jews' blood that made them hate Germans)

Saying that the Germans and Jews were/are implacable blood enemies is one thing [and a stupid thing at that]; but that's different from saying that German culture [or the cultures of other European countries] were quite comfortable with anti-Semitic concepts.

 

[butchersapron]

It had one of the smaller Jewish populations in Europe, that's true.

That's not what I said though, and it doesn't deal with the responses to your claim.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yes, there was anti-Jewish sentiment, but it was no worse than in other European states, and better than in some.

That's similar to saying that racism in 1960's Illinois was better than the racism in 1960s Mississippi.

While it is a true statement, the racism in 1960s Illinois was still pretty bad.

 

[goldenecitrone]

You're right. There isn't.
"Hitler's Willing Executioners", however, builds an entire psychological edifice around a German anti-Semitism that it claims pre-exist Nazism, and to be an essential part of the German psyche.

Which is exactly the same as saying 'all Jews are like this'. Amazingly dumb.

 

[frogwoman]

the truth is a lot more complex frequently

about a week ago, I was at a holocaust memorial/religious fasting service at my local synagogue. There was a guy speaking there who had escaped to the UK shortly before the start of the war. Apparently when the Nazis came to power his dad at first used to tell people, and believe, that they weren't talking about Jews like him, who had been a front line soldier during the first world war, and was extremely patriotic and proud of being German - they were talking about the recent immigrants that had come to Germany from Poland and were a lot poorer and seen as more culturally different. However it soon became quite apparent that they meant all Jews, nonetheless he saw himself as being equally Jewish and German.

i have met a few german jews and i get the impression most are quite proud of where they are from. I don't think this would be the case if everyone in germany was an anti-semite who made their lives unbearable and when "the germans" were being attacked some of them would also see it as attacking them because they are german.

there's also the old nazi myth that the jews can never be truly part of "the german people" which arguments about german people's racially inbred anti-semitism tend to endorse, ironically

 

[goldenecitrone]

the truth is a lot more complex frequently

about a week ago, I was at a holocaust memorial/religious fasting service at my local synagogue. There was a guy speaking there who had escaped to the UK shortly before the start of the war. Apparently when the Nazis came to power he at first used to tell people, and believe, that they weren't talking about Jews like him, who had been a front line soldier during the first world war, and was extremely patriotic and proud of being German - they were talking about the recent immigrants that had come to Germany from Poland and were a lot poorer and seen as more culturally different. However it soon became quite apparent that they meant all Jews, nonetheless he saw himself as being equally Jewish and German.

i have met a few german jews and i get the impression most are quite proud of where they are from. I don't think this would be the case if everyone in germany was an anti-semite who made their lives unbearable and when "the germans" were being attacked some of them would also see it as attacking them because they are german.

there's also the old nazi myth that the jews can never be truly part of "the german people" which arguments about german people's racially inbred anti-semitism tend to endorse, ironically

This is one of the saddest things for me about Germany. Purely subjective from my point of view, but the Nazis succeeding in ripping out the German Jewish culture that was for so long at the forefront of European intellectual thought. To this day, Germany suffers from that aberration.

 

[weltweit]

I was looking at google.de news and there seems only one DW article about this Nazi hunt and that was in part critical of the reward.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

the truth is a lot more complex frequently

about a week ago, I was at a holocaust memorial/religious fasting service at my local synagogue. There was a guy speaking there who had escaped to the UK shortly before the start of the war. Apparently when the Nazis came to power he at first used to tell people, and believe, that they weren't talking about Jews like him, who had been a front line soldier during the first world war,

This happened last week? The last WW1 vet died in 2012.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

There are about 100,000 jews in Germany, excluding non jewish spouses etc. Many of them are emigrants from the former Soviet Union.

 

[weltweit]

There are about 100,000 jews in Germany, excluding non jewish spouses etc. Many of them are emigrants from the former Soviet Union.

Out of a population of 81,000,000 that is not many..

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Germany's Jewish population was 565,000 in 1933 and 37,000 in 1950.

 

[frogwoman]

This happened last week? The last WW1 vet died in 2012.

I meant his dad sorry not him. haved edited the post now sorry.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yep, I googled it. Wouldn't have uncovered that book if I hadn't. Finding new things via google isn't really a sign of weakness nor failure.

No it's a sign that your original argument came from a place of ignorance, though, in which case you could start to look like you're trolling.

The law was on the books; I don't think it was applied all that often.

I'm not particularly interested in what you think might have been the case

Like I said - if it were, most of the Wehrmacht that went through Russia would have been put before a firing squad for raping millions of Russian women.

3 million dead German servicemen on the Eastern Front (not including the casualties once the retreat entered Germany-proper in late '44-early '45). That's a bit less than half of all German servicemen who served on that front. I kind of think that if they were as prolific rapists as you're promoting them to be, they got theirs.

Of course, there's little evidence that they were as prolific at rape as you're claiming, despite almost 70 years in which evidence could have emerged (although I'm sure you'll blame that on the NKVD), whereas there's a fair amount of documentary proof for the predations of Red Army troops in Germany.

 

[Pickman's model]

further to previous replies perhaps jc3 would like to see 'sexual violence in europe in world war ii' by burds, freely available on the interwebnet

 

[frogwoman]

the nazis came down quite hard on rape in the military i heard, because of their racial theories and the whole idea of "honour".

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's similar to saying that racism in 1960's Illinois was better than the racism in 1960s Mississippi.

While it is a true statement, the racism in 1960s Illinois was still pretty bad.

It's not at all similar. In late 19th-century Germany Jews were members of the professions, served at the highest ranks of the military and were widely-accepted in "society". Eastern European and Russian Jews fled to Germany, to England and to America. By choice, not necessity.
In the Tsarist empire we were barred from the military and the professions, when we weren't being chased out of the country or murdered village by village.
In France Jews were notable by their near absence from the upper levels of society, and those in the professions and the military were still under sufferance long past Dreyfus.

You want me to go into how we were treated in the Austro-Hungarian empire and the Balkans?

 

[ViolentPanda]

further to previous replies perhaps jc3 would like to see 'sexual violence in europe in world war ii' by burds, freely available on the interwebnet

Only if it furthers his own claims.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Which is exactly the same as saying 'all Jews are like this'. Amazingly dumb.

Yes, but Goldhagen didn't see it like that, didn't notice that his own argument essentialised Germans in the same way that he claimed that Germans essentialised Jews.
Or if he did see it, he didn't care.

 

[frogwoman]

It's not at all similar. In late 19th-century Germany Jews were members of the professions, served at the highest ranks of the military and were widely-accepted in "society". Eastern European and Russian Jews fled to Germany, to England and to America. By choice, not necessity.
In the Tsarist empire we were barred from the military and the professions, when we weren't being chased out of the country or murdered village by village.
In France Jews were notable by their near absence from the upper levels of society, and those in the professions and the military were still under sufferance long past Dreyfus.

You want me to go into how we were treated in the Austro-Hungarian empire and the Balkans?

anti-semitism is still pretty widespread in france tbh. and eastern europe.

 

[Pickman's model]

Only if it furthers his own claims.

and there was me thinking jc3 was a dedicated seeker of the truth

 

[ViolentPanda]

This happened last week? The last WW1 vet died in 2012.

The guy's dad was a vet, not the guy himself. Read the fucking post, you dolt.

 

[frogwoman]

The guy's dad was a vet, not the guy himself. Read the fucking post, you dolt.

to be fair, i wrote that it was him by mistake, but have since edited the post

 

[ViolentPanda]

There are about 100,000 jews in Germany, excluding non jewish spouses etc. Many of them are emigrants from the former Soviet Union.

The number has been slowly increasing since the mid-1990s (despite the state of Israel supposedly funding scare tactics to deter people from settling in Germany).
Some of those emigrants, by the way, are descendents of German Jews who "submerged" in states such as Czechoslovakia and Hungary, and avoided the round-ups.

 

[ViolentPanda]

to be fair, i wrote that it was him by mistake, but have since edited the post

Be fair? To Johnny? Never!!!

 

[ViolentPanda]

the nazis came down quite hard on rape in the military i heard, because of their racial theories and the whole idea of "honour".

Johnny appears to be advancing the claim that most German soldiers were rapists and merely avoided the courts.

Which shows a poor understanding of both military justice and how far Nazi ideology permeated the military via the informal system of "political officers" that the German military had to labour under.