articul8
Dishonest sociopath
There is a problem.
In itself this particular reform might help, but it won't cure the problem.
Let's not bother
Ultra-left logic
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There is a problem.
In itself this particular reform might help, but it won't cure the problem.
Let's not bother
Ultra-left logic
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
CCTV empowers the employer, the land owner and the state (i.e. those who own and control the technology); they do the looking, they keep the records and they are known to do so by the rest of us.
What CCTV also does is excuse those same employers, land owners and state bodies from engaging with other protective measures; after all they are doing something valuable already.
Indeed all those employers, landowners and state officials could call on you in their defence; 'look' they could say 'even sensible Labour Party people like articul8 can see what a good job we're doing!'
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Oh come on, that's just pathetic.
Like they can call on him and Ed to defend zero hour contracts.
Sad thing is that in three-four years time I can easily see a8 defending Labour's attacks on those on benefits.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's entirely consistent politician logic.
Animals are being abused.
This is a measure aimed at reducing animal abuse.
Therefore, if you oppose this measure, you are in favour of animals being abused.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
I don't see how this follows. I'm clear that the biggest root cause of animal abuse in food production is systematic, a result of industrial scale intensive farming. That needs tackling as a priority. But if CCTV can offer a measure of transparency and accountability - so that producers and workers aren't protected from commiting needless acts of suffering behind the walled gates of the unit, this seems to be a good thing.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
that's nothing like what he said. but wtf, lets all play attack the point because of who made it yet again, it's the best thing about the whole board!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
One of the ironies here is that a8 fancies himself as a philosophy student.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Now that's pathetic - I am totally opposed to exploitation of workers on zero hours contracts, and have actively campaigned against them. To sugget I "defend" them is a downright lie
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes it is. I oppose a measure because it impinges on freedom, and he says that this implies that I support freedom to abuse animals. The logic does not follow.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
I know enough to understand that the argument that individual freedom is sacrosanct is a classically liberal position
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Freedom. Infinite freedom. Except to do something I don't agree with....
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Nobody is arguing that, though.I know enough to understand that the argument that individual freedom is sacrosanct is a classically liberal position
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
^^^this is what happens when you employ fuck haired advertising creatives who lack even a basic reading background and grasp of nuance
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
And again. Unless I support your measure, I'm supporting some idea of infinite freedom. Extending spy cameras is the only way to address the issue. Either you spy or people can do whatever they want.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Well I didn't I argue that "freedom doesn't matter"
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That was more of a longer-scale thing. You consistently argue on here for authoritarian top-down measures.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
like what?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Like the
Charlie Hebdo massacre and the West's response
thread
From around page 37 onwards.
Sorry, I'm crap at linking to threads, but it's a very good example.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Hmm - if you accept that "freedom" is not an absolute good, then it follows there are certain instances in which the common good depends on limiting the freedom of the individual, no? Then the question is who has the authority to introduce and police those limits...?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
He did no such thing. he pointed out that 'freedom' encompasses all sorts of things that are, generally, unsupported, thus pointing out the central contradiction of your post.
And so, yet another thread becomes (in essence) all about a8 being a shit, because a8 is in the labour party. A complete and utter waste of time, and liable to make people, except the few partaking, to go 'sod this'
this isn't true. Although this
probably is.
Flanflinger
Well-Known Member
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Apologies I did use his party affiliation as a chance to have a cheap shot.
However, my main point is that CCTV is a potentially dangerous, necessarily partial and individualising solution (it makes us be our own police) to problems that are socially produced and to which we should be looking for similarly social answers.
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This is well put. I'll desist as well. fwiw I don't have a go at a8 because he's in the Labour Party, but because I find his ideas mostly horrifying.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
you have lived a very sheltered life in that case...
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
i would say I'm a civil libertarian compared to many - but no so much when it comes to animal cruelty and beating up the elderly
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