General Dulwich Hamlet chat

[Alex W]

Without second-guessing him or putting words into his mouth… I think editor knows all that. I think his point is more that generic output attracts generic fans who produce generic crowds and atmosphere, and that that’s not an enticing thing to go along and be a part of. By contrast the exceptional (in all senses of the word) fan-led DHFCW socials contribute to exceptional (ditto) matchdays.

It's very kind of you to say such nice things about the Pepper Army socials!

Kian has a much harder job than we do though. Our posting schedule is basically "when someone is bored at work / on the bus / remembers we should post something / is drunk enough to do a seven thread tweet about how much we hate Dartford". Whereas Kian has to churn out a high volume of posts throughout the week, and having done that professionally for other people, I know first hand how you run out of ideas REALLY quickly. The club accounts are also The Official Voice Of The Club, so he can't just fire off random half-baked nonsense like we do.

From a Pepper Army point of view, Kian's been massively enthusiastic and collaborative about promoting women's games, which he deserves a lot of credit for.

But ultimately, whoever is doing the Dulwich social media job is always going to be someone at the beginning of their career who's still learning and figuring a lot of stuff out. Feedback is, of course, entirely reasonable, but as a broader fanbase we should be kinder and give them more slack imo.

 

[scousedom]

It's very kind of you to say such nice things about the Pepper Army socials!

Kian has a much harder job than we do though. Our posting schedule is basically "when someone is bored at work / on the bus / remembers we should post something / is drunk enough to do a seven thread tweet about how much we hate Dartford". Whereas Kian has to churn out a high volume of posts throughout the week, and having done that professionally for other people, I know first hand how you run out of ideas REALLY quickly. The club accounts are also The Official Voice Of The Club, so he can't just fire off random half-baked nonsense like we do.

From a Pepper Army point of view, Kian's been massively enthusiastic and collaborative about promoting women's games, which he deserves a lot of credit for.

But ultimately, whoever is doing the Dulwich social media job is always going to be someone at the beginning of their career who's still learning and figuring a lot of stuff out. Feedback is, of course, entirely reasonable, but as a broader fanbase we should be kinder and give them more slack imo.

Both all this and what I’m interpreting @editor’s point as being can simultaneously be true I think. It’s all part of the trend towards mainstream volume and away from I dunno, whatever you’d define what came before as, that’s been the club’s philosophy since the day they asked Crouch to be the very public face of things.

 

[Alex W]

Both all this and what I’m interpreting @editor’s point as being can simultaneously be true I think. It’s all part of the trend towards mainstream volume and away from I dunno, whatever you’d define what came before as, that’s been the club’s philosophy since the day they asked Crouch to be the very public face of things.

I think what you interpret as being "mainstream" is just professionalism. It would open a giant can of worms if the social media manager was expected to put too much of their own life and individual personality into it.

I mean, 90% of the tweets from the Pepper Army account are probably me complaining about being hungover. I'm not sure that's the kind of thing people would want coming from the club account!

 

[scousedom]

I think what you interpret as being "mainstream" is just professionalism. It would open a giant can of worms if the social media manager was expected to put too much of their own life and individual personality into it.

I mean, 90% of the tweets from the Pepper Army account are probably me complaining about being hungover. I'm not sure that's the kind of thing people would want coming from the club account!

Respectfully disagree….

 

[editor]

The primary job of the club's social media accounts is to shift tickets by making sure Dulwich games stay top of people's minds, and the current social media manager does that very well.

But also, it's fine that you don't enjoy the social media output, it probably just means that you're not the target audience!

Absolutely. But there's far more imaginative, engaging and brand-promoting ways of doing that than a stream of unrewarding nonsense like, "The hunt is on."

What does that say about the club and its values?

 

[Paula_G]

Dulwich fans of the “older” generation will remember Kerry in his role at the Hamlet though I probably spent more time chatting to him in his role at Bromley and later Cray. Always an absolute pleasure to chat with and be regaled with tales of non league that always left you smiling. Facebook T-Shirt

 

[Paula_G]

Absolutely. But there's far more imaginative, engaging and brand-promoting ways of doing that than a stream of unrewarding nonsense like, "The hunt is on."

What does that say about the club and its values?

Must admit I’m intrigued as to why the club didn’t look amongst the ranks of the Hamlet fans to fill the role after Tom was dispensed with. The thing about the social media presence of the club was this was built up over the years by individuals who were fans first, be they old school rabble or new converts to the pink and blue. Some of us had a grounding in the fanzine culture, others in media and that came through on the content that was provided. Social media seemed personal back then. Nowadays it seems more about the numbers. Never mind the quality feel the width.

 

[Bugpowder Dust]

I think a club of our size and fanbase is probably beyond having a fan in charge of the socials, needs a pro!

One thing that would be good to cover is some community stuff, volunteering, partnerships, etc. But I guess can only cover this if it's actually happening, and I'm not sure as a fanbase we've been that active on that front of late?

 

[editor]

I think a club of our size and fanbase is probably beyond having a fan in charge of the socials, needs a pro!

One thing that would be good to cover is some community stuff, volunteering, partnerships, etc. But I guess can only cover this if it's actually happening, and I'm not sure as a fanbase we've been that active on that front of late?

Oh, I don't know, This forum must be one of the very biggest in non league football and it's strictly amateur.

It really doesn't take much effort to bang out an Insta post/reel and there's really no need to do more than 1 to 3 posts everyday*.

(*if there's something constructive to say, otherwise silence is preferable).

 

[Nivag]

There's one thing thinking you can do social media for an organisation/company/club to actually do it.
Having done the job myself from the early days of Facebook overtaking MySpace in popularity and Bebo/hi5 plus some even more random platforms it's an unforgiving job and you'll never please everyone and as Alex W says keeping content fresh takes a lot of effort.
Plus these days keeping the algorithm gods happy is a ballache without having to spend money on paid/sponsored posts to make them appear in people's timelines.

 

[Paula_G]

I think a club of our size and fanbase is probably beyond having a fan in charge of the socials, needs a pro!

One thing that would be good to cover is some community stuff, volunteering, partnerships, etc. But I guess can only cover this if it's actually happening, and I'm not sure as a fanbase we've been that active on that front of late?

A club of our size and fanbase (plus demographic) is probably a lot more likely to find those in the ranks with professional social media experience than a lot of our rivals. And definitely more likely than when the social media presence was built up from scratch in the early days. As a player with Clapton CFC I’m intrigued to compare the social media offering there with the Dulwich one. No one is “professional” there but there’s a collective strategy which has created a very personal feeling about that offering with similar numbers.

 

[Alex W]

A club of our size and fanbase (plus demographic) is probably a lot more likely to find those in the ranks with professional social media experience than a lot of our rivals. And definitely more likely than when the social media presence was built up from scratch in the early days. As a player with Clapton CFC I’m intrigued to compare the social media offering there with the Dulwich one. No one is “professional” there but there’s a collective strategy which has created a very personal feeling about that offering with similar numbers.

Clapton CFC men got around 750 people watching them at the weekend iirc, and on current trends our women's attendances might soon overtake that. No shade to CCFC, but they're a very different and younger club in a very different position. It's not a like for like comparison.

DHFC is a business that's in a position to pay people for their work, and personally I think asking people to do the social media and comms job for free would be a backwards step.

 

[editor]

I'm not really bothered if someone is getting paid for it or if it's a volunteer, although I'd argue that either could do the job well if they're motivated enough and understand the club's ethos.

I offered what I thought was constructive advice about the content quality and frequency of the club's Insta account.

It really is possible to post too much social media content and if that content isn't remotely engaging it may end up alienating your target audience. This isn't just my opinion by the way, it's something that's been seen in various studies.

Case in point: what is this post supposed to do? And why isn't the player named and some context given to a Monday afternoon post?

 

[Alex W]

I'm not really bothered if someone is getting paid for it or if it's a volunteer, although I'd argue that either could do the job well vif they're motivated enough and understand the club's ethos.

I offered what I thought was constructive advice about the content quality and frequency of the club's Insta account.

It really is possible to post too much social media content and if that content isn't remotely engaging it may end up alienating your target audience. This isn't just my opinion by the way, it's something that's been seen in various studies.

Case in point: what is this post supposed to do? And why isn't the player named and some context given to the post?


View attachment 416420

It's a photo on a photo-based social media platform.

Ultimately, you don't have to like it, that's fine. But you also shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that your experience as a long-standing hardcore fan is the same as a floating punter who may see one in every ten posts the club publishes.

The metric that really matters is the number of bodies through the turnstiles, and the current approach delivers on that objective.

 

[editor]

It's a photo on a photo-based social media platform.

Ultimately, you don't have to like it, that's fine. But you also shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that your experience as a long-standing hardcore fan is the same as a floating punter who may see one in every ten posts the club publishes.

The metric that really matters is the number of bodies through the turnstiles, and the current approach delivers on that objective.

And you also shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that your experience is the same as people who have worked with social media for years, or the experts who have conducted studies on how best to promote your brand online. Have you even looked at any or are you just going to shout down any criticism, constructive or not?

Do you honestly believe it wouldn't have been more constructive and engaging to have added the player's name and some other context to the post?
Or do you think just posting a random unexplained pic accompanied by a biceps emoticon is what social media engagement is all about?

 

[Alex W]

And you also shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that your experience is the same as people who have worked with social media for years, or the experts who have conducted studies on how best to promote your brand online. Have you even looked at any or are you just going to shout down any criticism, constructive or not?

Do you honestly believe it wouldn't have been more constructive and engaging to have added the player's name and some other context to the post?
Or do you think just posting a random unexplained pic accompanied by a biceps emoticon is what social media engagement is all about?

I will politely decline the invitation for an "I've worked in social media" willy-waving contest, but a post like this is a quick-and-easy way of trying to keep the Hamlet top of mind for anyone who sees it.

It's not the greatest Instagram post in the world, it's not going to change the world or usher in a new age of prosperity for the football club, but it's fine.

But please do feel free to bookmark this and hold me to account when attendances start collapsing because of insufficiently comprehensive Instagram captions.

 

[Paula_G]

Clapton CFC men got around 750 people watching them at the weekend iirc, and on current trends our women's attendances might soon overtake that. No shade to CCFC, but they're a very different and younger club in a very different position. It's not a like for like comparison.

DHFC is a business that's in a position to pay people for their work, and personally I think asking people to do the social media and comms job for free would be a backwards step.

Clapton CFC have over 32k followers on Twitter, 13k on Facebook & 16k on Instagram - all comparable figures with Dulwich Hamlet. The club is member owned, members including most of the players, and have purchased the freehold of the Old Spotted Dog, something which I believe many at Dulwich Hamlet aspire to do. The team’s second shirt has now shifted over 20,000 units. Of course the crowd is different and the numbers are different. After I’d hardly expect a gaggle of Clapham males to turn up at the OSD for their pre-rugby lagers. CCFC were only formed 6 years ago and play three levels below DHFC. But this is not about any braggadocio, this is about showing it’s possible to find people with the skills prepared to carry out this role. There are probably a lot more people with media skills amongst the fans at Champion Hill as well as youngsters, students and school pupils, with the sort of novel ideas to brighten up the social media offerings.

 

[Paula_G]

It's a photo on a photo-based social media platform.

Ultimately, you don't have to like it, that's fine. But you also shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that your experience as a long-standing hardcore fan is the same as a floating punter who may see one in every ten posts the club publishes.

The metric that really matters is the number of bodies through the turnstiles, and the current approach delivers on that objective.

I always imagined that Dulwich was “against modern football” but I suppose if the “floating punter” is the club’s core target market looks like that’s no longer the case. Whether the social media output delivers the crowd is a matter of debate without the figures to back it up. The views on Twitter are okay but nothing outstanding. Still feel there is a lot of old fashioned word of mouth and FOMO going on in those turning up to games.

 

[Paula_G]

It really is possible to post too much social media content and if that content isn't remotely engaging it may end up alienating your target audience. This isn't just my opinion by the way, it's something that's been seen in various studies.

This was very much proven in the growth of the Hamlet social media presence with posts timed to key times of the day and not being hammered out willynilly at random times of the day. Looking at the views on Twitter doing seem to see as many 10k views. I genuinely do see making posts more adventurous and engaging affecting the crowd numbers one bit though I do think it could start attracting more long term supporters rather than your “floaters”.

 

[Alex W]

I always imagined that Dulwich was “against modern football” but I suppose if the “floating punter” is the club’s core target market looks like that’s no longer the case. Whether the social media output delivers the crowd is a matter of debate without the figures to back it up. The views on Twitter are okay but nothing outstanding. Still feel there is a lot of old fashioned word of mouth and FOMO going on in those turning up to games.

I think the guiding principle is "against going bankrupt"

 

[Paula_G]

That’s sounds seriously overdramatic. I’m not sure bankruptcy is on the horizon any time soon. Even in the days when we were living hand to mouth with <200 fans coming through the turnstiles we’d have kept Dulwich Hamlet alive even if it meant a team of fans chasing a ball around on Peckham Rye in the local Sunday League.

 

[editor]

I will politely decline the invitation for an "I've worked in social media" willy-waving contest, but a post like this is a quick-and-easy way of trying to keep the Hamlet top of mind for anyone who sees it.

It's not the greatest Instagram post in the world, it's not going to change the world or usher in a new age of prosperity for the football club, but it's fine.

You really should learn to be less defensive and stop trying to shout down constructive criticism.

But posts containing a caption-less image and a bulging biceps emoticon and no other information will never be a good example of how to build a brand and interreact with your customers on line, no matter how much you insist it is.

But please do feel free to bookmark this and hold me to account when attendances start collapsing because of insufficiently comprehensive Instagram captions.

And that's plain childish. The crowds at Hamlet were growing fast long before Instagram became part of the scene and I doubt if it would make much (if any) difference if Hamlet barely posted on Instagram again, because there's lots of other ways to find out what's going on.

 

[Alex W]

You really should learn to be less defensive and stop trying to shout down constructive criticism.

Who's shouting? I'm just disagreeing with you politely, which you don't seem to enjoy very much.

A bit of projecting going on there I think...

Anyway, this conversation isn't going anywhere so I'm going to bail out. But I do think the social media and comms gig is a hard one, and as a broader fanbase we should be a bit more thoughtful about how and how often we're publicly dumping on someone in the early stages of their career who is learning in public and on-the-job at a non-league football club, with all the idiosyncrasies that involves. But you do you.

 

[editor]

Who's shouting? I'm just disagreeing with you politely, which you don't seem to enjoy very much.

A bit of projecting going on there I think...

Anyway, this conversation isn't going anywhere so I'm going to bail out. But I do think the social media and comms gig is a hard one, and as a broader fanbase we should be a bit more thoughtful about how and how often we're publicly dumping on someone in the early stages of their career who is learning in public and on-the-job at a non-league football club, with all the idiosyncrasies that involves. But you do you.

"But you do you"? Really.

You're being needlessly snarky. If someone is in the 'early stages of their career' then that's PRECISELY the time they should be listening to experienced people who have been involved with both social media and this club for a lot longer. I'm only posting because I want things to be better for the club and for whoever is doing the posting to get better at it.

Everything I've posted here has been damn good advice, backed up by ample research online, but instead you're just doubling down and throwing cheap jibes around. Not a good look.

 

[Paula_G]

But I do think the social media and comms gig is a hard one

Something I’m very much aware of as I was involved in the early growth of our social media side along with other areas such as the website as well as writing match reports and press releases for the club and a lot more besides as a volunteer at this club for close to 30 years. Chuck in writing for fanzines, a bit of photography, operating the turnstiles, setting up our first digital ticket operations through See Tickets. Most of that I learnt on the job so I’d have more than welcomed a bit of constructive advice then.

 

[pompeydunc]

The metric that really matters is the number of bodies through the turnstiles, and the current approach delivers on that objective.

I really hope that is not the metric that really matters! We are better than that.

 

[editor]

I really hope that is not the metric that really matters! We are better than that.

Indeed. Agree 100%.

And I take issue with the claim that the current social media strategy is what's responsible for the huge crowds. We were getting crowds every bit as big before the latest social media manager got involved, and they were the result of all the hard work put in over the years by a host of people involved at the club.

Instagram has got very little to do with it.

 

[scousedom]

I really hope that is not the metric that really matters! We are better than that.

I think "bodies through the turnstiles" is saying the quiet part out loud, and it speaks to the disconnect at the club right now. For the ownership it is all about bodies, for the manager it is all about the league, but for the fans.... Fan culture and cup runs are all secondary to that. If they can happen without upsetting the primary concerns they'll be tolerated and even given a semblance of encouragement, but they aren't seen as what the thing is for.

 

[scousedom]

Indeed. Agree 100%.

And I take issue with the claim that the current social media strategy is what's responsible for the huge crowds. We were getting crowds every bit as big before the latest social media manager got involved, and they were the result of all the hard work put in over the years by a host of people involved at the club.

Instagram has got very little to do with it.

If the current strategy is detrimental to crowds and if you think crowds are too big to be enjoyable (and I don't disagree with either supposition).... maybe just let the man work.

 

[kwardgk]

Hello

Don't really check this site much at the moment but understand our social media platforms have been discussed quite heavily recently.

Obviously I fully understand that our channels aren't everyone's cup of tea and I'd also agree that currently they aren't at a level they should be. Coming in midway through the season I felt we had to get the basics right before we pushed the boat out and started really producing new and engaging content.

Someone mentioned focussing some content on our community work. This is definitely something I and the club want to promote more. I'm currently in the middle of creating our 24/25 Media plan/strategy which should lead to more consistent content for you all to enjoy.

Last week and the posts leading up to Lewes were designed to inspire a fanbase to turn up again in numbers for a huge play off clash.

Me and Hak chat 2/3 times a week on how incredible the support is here at Dulwich. Saturday was a huge game for us and difficult to advertise because of it being a 2nd Saturday at Home in a row. I felt we had to change things up and see how a different approach would work. In my opinion the change in strategy worked and we had a large group of vocal supporters behind the goal.

On the post of Harrison Hatful, it is purely designed to just keep us fresh in peoples minds. We've only got 3 home games left this season so it is good to keep us in peoples heads. The caption is simple because well the majority of social media users in the modern age don't/won't read long captions. I for example when on Instagram especially mainly just hopelessly scroll through just to take my mind of the real world. I'm not gonna stop and read 4/5 lines on a post hence why it's such a bland caption on that post.

We've got to find a way of making the day trippers regular fans. Many of us started watching this club or whatever clubs you watch as just a day tripper going to watch a game and then realising you absolutely love it. That's what we've got to try and do here.

My grandparents are a prime example. They came to their first game Saturday and absolutely loved it and everything about the club now my Grandad wants to buy a season ticket and come every week.

By all means i'm not a social media pro i'm far from it. The Club has been lucky to have some really good social media people that I lean on now for advise and tips etc on how to improve. But I have worked for the last 4/5 years worked for the likes of Concord Rangers when they had their amazing run to the FA Trophy final. Alfreton Town in the National League North as they had a memorable FA Cup run this season as well as Huddersfield Town Women.

I freelance too for British Cycling at some of their summer racing series to test myself and my content creation in different environments and different sports.

Our social media channels have improved in terms of data. Our engagement is up across the big 3 (Twitter, Facebook and Instagram) and Threads is a consistent performer too.

Our Inside DHFC series seems to be performing well on YouTube aswell and the new website thanks to the hard work of Dave Rogers has I think made the experience of DHFC supporters online much more enjoyable and easier than ever before!

Our Social Media should always be evolving always changing and I'm happy to get feedback or ideas you think would look good. The media email is: media@dulwichhamletfc.co.uk