Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Gaza demo and religion - some thoughts.

frogwoman

No amount of cajolery...
re-posted from what i wrote on facebook ... lol, tell me what you think. Im wondering whether an end is in sight to my three years long religious crisis :D

____________________________________________

Please bear with me because I think what Im about to write is going to sound very weird.

For a long time I've been feeling pretty confused about religion. Make that very confused.

When I was religious I frequently tended to see everything related to God and religious topics and the like, in a very black and white way, as well as seeing zionism and israel in that way as well. The Israelis were "the good guys" and the palestinians were "the bad guys". For a political movement that is the subject of so many outlandish conspiracy theories, a lot of zionists love thinking up sinister conspiracies of their own and I was certainly not an exception. I believed that the world was basically against Israel for no apparent reason, and I linked that to the religion of Judaism as a whole.

I was having a pretty bad time all through my teens and religion did help me a lot. But a lot of it fucked me up, although i didn't realise at the time. I was quite racist, i spent a lot of time with people i should have never, ever have talked to, had some very extreme zionist views, that were partly because of what was happening in my life, and partly because zionism offers very easy answers, by telling you that the world is against you and giving something to focus on. Some of it seems totally absurd to look back on it, as well as the fact that I knew much of it was nonsense and simply ignored it by thinking, "well, that's not true, but the rest of it is." I'll write another post about zionism in a while, I'm meaning to write an article about it, but that could be a whole other note.

When I stopped being religious I spent a lot of time being really angry about religion. I think it was because I'd believed in God almost in a fundamentalist type of a way, despite going to a fairly liberal synagogue, and spent an awful lot of time thinking in that way and trying to get others to do the same. I felt totally let down and betrayed although to be honest it couldn't of been god's fault! I basically became really angry about anything to do with religion, although i didn't really know whether I believed in God I thought he probably didn't exist.

I think religion sometimes stopps you thinking for yourself. For example if you see a sunset as a religious person, you can often not think "Oh look at that beautiful sunset," on its own, but you frequently end up thinking, "Oh, look at that beautiful sunset THAT GOD MADE." It can somewhat close the mind and stop you thinking about things in certain ways.

When I stopped being a zionist it was a real shock to discover that Israel, which I had always thought was doing the right thing even though it "sometimes made mistakes" and did some bad things, was carrying out such horrific policies that I could see for what they really were without me trying to defend them by saying things like "there's nothing wrong with demolishing the houses of terrorists - they do that all the time in england, look, they demolished fred west's house when they found the bodies under the patio!" So, I then became really angry about Judaism in particular and basically beat not only the religion but myself up about what was going on.


In the last few weeks I've been thinking more about Judaism. Ive come back from living in a country that used to be around 60% Jewish before they were killed during the war. The holocaust left a huge hole in countries that used to have huge Jewish communities. I went to synagogue the week before I left Moldova and it started me thinking about a lot of things.

During the Gaza demo yesterday I noticed that there were very very many Jews on the demo, to show their disgust at Israel and their support for the Palestinians. I had a chat with someone I'd met before on previous demos and she started me thinking about some things.

I've come to some interesting conclusions, and here they are.


1) Judaism is NOT zionism.

It's easy to say this, but not so easy to really believe it.

It is really easy to get angry at "Jews" for the lack of disgust at Israel, and wonder whether there is something wrong with us or our religion to create such a "monster". Even if you're not actually thinking this consciously, you might still be feeling this way subconsciously and not only blaming the religion for things in Gaza but also being ashamed of yourself. Or you might start to think that criticising israel is anti-semitic and even blasphemous.

I think there are two reasons for this.

One, is that many Jewish people are zionists, there is often a pro-Israel narrative in the media and there is a lot of social pressure to be a zionist as well.

The other is not so obvious. In the Jewish religion, there is an idea that an injury to one is an injury to all, and if a Jew does something bad then all Jews are responsible in some way, and almost as though you have done that bad thing yourself. This idea is a good one in many ways as it helped the community to keep together, but it is really not helpful in this case. In the case of, for example, the Cumbria shooter, English people don't feel as though we have murdered 12 people just because we are the same nationality as he is, so why should it be the same for religion.

there is no need to feel guilty over it or feel like the religion is all completley fucked or deficient, because we have basically not done anything, the Israeli government has, and there is also not a need to think we are responsible for whatever zionism has caused.


2) We can change things.


Ive said loads of times, that I dont go to synagogue any more because it doesn't represent me etc. But there are loads and loads of people who feel that it doesn't represent them either, or fulfil various needs, whether they agree about politics or not. There would be nothing to stop us from starting our own groups - i mean there are enough people now for a start.

There have been least two major movements in the last 500 or so years that began because the current form of Judaism was not working for some of the people. One of them was the Hasidic movement and the other one was the Reform movement.

The Hasidic movement began in Eastern Europe among working class Jews and was designed to make Judaism more about serving God through joyful worship and the emotions rather than sitting in a room studying, which tended to be inaccessible to many people, as well as completely irrelevant to their lives, especially if they were peasants or manual workers. There is a tale of Hasidic Jews confronting a leader called the Gaon of Vilna, over the fact that he spent much of his life on academic matters and studying the Torah rather than using the Torah to help the people. He knew nothing about the ordinary lives of other Jews who were less fortunate than himself. When he was confronted with this, he sat down and wept.

The Reform movement began in Britain in the 19th century, over the absurdity of having different synagogues for different "types" of Jews, such as ashkenazi and sephardi. A synagogue was started for "British Jews" which could include anyone. It was necessary because the community was already unpopular and poor and it made sense to stick together rather than make divisions. They soon turned their attention not only to the different customs of ashkenazi and sephardi jews but also to other customs within Judaism which were senseless and served no spiritual purpose, such as the lower status of women, and in addition, they scrapped some of the more stringent requirements of food rules which were seen as a barrier to integrating in society. Previously, "modernisers" within Judaism had often ended up advocating conversion to Christianity. It began at a time when movements such as early womens' rights campaigners and trade unions were beginning to form, and Jews were beginning to become involved in these.

So, if these had such a significant impact, which they undoubtedly have, on the development of Judaism, it would make sense to try to think about something similar rather than leaving the religion. I am willing to try and I don't know if anyone else is. :)

3) In the past the Jewish people have had some terrilbe things happen, but this problem with Israel is something that has never happened before. It is unprecedented that the Jewish people are perpetrators of crimes on such a large scale.


So.................people don't know how to react to it, and so many good people are losing their faith as a result, or if not losing it, being so sickened by israels actions that they can't bear to participate in anything jewish any more. But one of the things I heard on the demo that it would be a shame to have this "problem" drive me away from my faith which has been something that has meant an awful lot to me in the past.


I think I've grown up and matured a lot since I was first religious, and I don't think I would become as fanatical again. So I tihnk that now might be the time to go back to it, although right now I don't really feel that keen on organised religion. But I think that's OK. I think i need something, even if I just end up making up my own things as I go along. It's going to be a bit of a challenge to me to figure out where I am with my spirituality again but I've been having a think about it and it's like, I want to try and figure this out without worrying about anything too much or getting into anything weird and fanatical. It will be an interesting journey I think.
 
I enjoyed reading your account frogw! Good luck with your journey, you've clearly got through quite a bit of it already.

For me, organised religions are just a method of control, where those who are controlled themselves (by systems, by limited thinking, by their upbringing/brainwashing) only find meaning to their lives by attempting to control others. Control is the operative word, and independence and freedom and self-responsibility are casualties.

Whereas religiousness for me is about the individual and how they interact with the natural world. Using your sunset example, it would be just about seeing the sunset just as a sunset: what is is, what happens happens. Cultivating awareness and observation are the tools of religiousness. Judgment, and all the guilt shame blame it brings with it, is the control factor in organised religions.
 
i would repost what i said on FB but ... meh

people just get very strange when it comes to ideas of them and us... and religion is one of the ultimate them and us-es especially judaism which has an aditional racial aspect
 
perhaps that is the wrong word... most religions would start off as specific to a group of related people but apart from say shinto i'[m strugling to thionk of modern religions that are particularly associated with one group of people

well confusionism too if you count that s a religion... actually this is an intresting topic probably suited best to a seperate thread
 
Thanks frogwoman, I found that interesting and insightful.

You're still quite young, yes? It seems to me that this question of how to conduct a relationship with Spirit (call it God...) often arises in the twenties. It's good to see that such a thoughtful person is looking at this question. Glad to see that you're not hiding it. That must be tempting to youngsters these days, since spirituality and religiousness is so castigated and sneered at by so many.

The gnostic approach interests me: finding a personal relationship with God that is based on one's own inner subjective experiences. Whether that ends up being predominantly a social, political relationship or a more transcendental relationship matters not, so long as it works for the individual.

So the sunset thing becomes "Oh look at that beautiful sunset that has been created by countless complex processes, some known and others unknown, or unknowable. And how wonderful and wonderous that I am able to experience it and be uplifted by it, and perhaps inspired and changed by it!" The person who pays no attention to the sunset will never be inspired or changed by it. It has to be an involved responsive experience if it is to be meaningful.

(I'm also fascinated by the science of religious experience: how we seem to be hardwired to believe in something, how we can trigger transcendental experiences easily in the lab, how we make and secrete N,N-Dimethyltryptamine endogenously...)

As for your pondering about whether the end of your "religious crisis" is in sight ... Well, like any ongoing relationship, you will probably encounter repeated ebbs and flows of questions, concerns and times of peace. The thing is to never settle, keep flowing. Like with water, stagnation leads to illness and murk while movement and flow brings life.
 
I don't 'get' religion at all. It fucks people up and clouds their judgment.


i'm sorry but I find this attitude simplistic and trite.

Religion also inspires people to take up and carry on courageous struggles of liberation - I see your Al Queda, Zionist bigotry, Ian Paisley and Westborough Baptist Church I raise you a martin luther king, the quakers, burmese monks, the abolishinist movement, south american liberation theologists and Ghandi.

I'm not a theist of any discripition and have major problems with the vile reactionary elements within many religions - but even a brief flip through the hisroty books will provide countless examples of people who use the same theology as a basis for doing the incredible (and often getting killed for it).
There are plenty of people involved with groups like ISM who are there becasue of religious convictions.
 
i'm sorry but I find this attitude simplistic and trite.

Religion also inspires people to take up and carry on courageous struggles of liberation - I see your Al Queda, Zionist bigotry, Ian Paisley and Westborough Baptist Church I raise you a martin luther king, the quakers, burmese monks, the abolishinist movement, south american liberation theologists and Ghandi.

I'm not a theist of any discripition and have major problems with the vile reactionary elements within many religions - but even a brief flip through the hisroty books will provide countless examples of people who use the same theology as a basis for doing the incredible (and often getting killed for it).
There are plenty of people involved with groups like ISM who are there becasue of religious convictions.

Yep.
 
I think religion sometimes stopps you thinking for yourself. For example if you see a sunset as a religious person, you can often not think "Oh look at that beautiful sunset," on its own, but you frequently end up thinking, "Oh, look at that beautiful sunset THAT GOD MADE." It can somewhat close the mind and stop you thinking about things in certain ways.


Yes - I think thats a very good point. Its the all emcompassing narrative that religion can provide off the peg that can cramp the imagnination and the developement of critical thinking - a dynamic, ever evolving undererstanding of life the universe and everything has to based on constant self questioning and doubt.

Or summit.
 
yeah it is a bit ridiculous. while we all need something to believe in there are times when religion just is ridiculous like that.
 
A few thoughts fwiw. Now After writing this and rereading it, it may appear a little brutal. That wasn't my intention and I can only talk for myself.

I was brought up a Catholic. Went to Catholic school etc but rejected it at an early age and I have lived most of my life in other countries. Mostly, though not entirely, traditional countries, as an outsider looking in and the reason I mention this is that religious belief in those type of very traditional cultures isn't an intellectual decision or an emotional decision. Indeed it isn't a decision at all. It's the framework in which people give meaning to their lives from birth to death. The meaning that surrounds you from the moment you come into the world until the moment you leave it and the explanation for it all. In Cambodia, you don't make a choice to become a Buddhist, you just are. Likewise in Egypt you don't make an intellectual or emotional decision to embrace Islam, it is given to you the moment you open your eyes and it is the meaning that surrounds your death.

However, in the west many of us don't have that all embracing meaning and purpose that comes with tradition. Our "religion" is choice itself. We pride ourselves on our intellectual freedom and political and cultural pluralism. Our society is the arena in which we are left to just, well, choose. There is little or no cultural tradition in the sense of a set of religious explanations for the purpose of our lives that surround us and guide us in the way it does in traditional cultures. In a way we have a kind of culture of negative choice.

There is little or no basis on which to make religious choices. Indeed the very concept of choice itself is a negation of the purpose of religion. Religion without culture and tradition and shared cultural meaning feels kind of empty and meaningless, at least for me. For once we "choose" religion, we are aware deep down that that very choice makes religious belief meaningless. .

Because if tradition and culture are reduced to intellectual choice. How do we choose? On what basis do we choose? Is is an intellectual decision. Do we sit down and read about a particular religion and decide we like it? Or do we read about a few and reject some and pick one?

Intellectual choice feels fake somehow. It seems a negation of the meaning of religion itself and a negation of the thing that I respect about religious belief and that is that it is the shared fabric of peoples social lives. Their history and culture and tradition. This I respect and for this reason I can balance my own atheism very easily with respect for the faith of others.

Is it our neurosis. Is that how we choose?

Our insecurity and our loneliness? The need for answers or meaning to fill a void. I am reminded of the Woody Allen scene in "Hannah and her sisters" where he discovers he doesn't have cancer and tries to find god. He visits various religions and discusses their various solutions to his neurotic crisis. "I like Catholicism, it's a good stable religion, solid, strong.One thing. I don't believe in god is this a problem?"

Is it fashion. Richard Gere discovered Buddhism, a trendy watered down hollywood version. Madonna has discovered the Kabbalah, likewise a trendy fashionable suitably distorted lifestyle version.

We choose UFOs and magic crystals, Atlantis and conspiricay theory. We choose trotskyism and anarchism and radical eco politics and attach to them the amount of zealous devotion that we require to fit the void. We choose drugs and clothing, become punks and goths, smoke pot and shoot up. We get pissed every friday night and spent the weekend nursing hangovers and telling ourselves we have meaning in our lives. We choose football and video games and we tend the roses.

But why then. Why, does it all feel so fucking fake and empty. .

Is it because when we have this religion of choice, our choices mean nothing.

One more thought on this. As some of you know I lost my wife when my son was very young. That left me with a bitterness and anger directed at a god I know isn't there. It left me with a bad taste and a contempt for religion, and if I am honest for the religious too, which I know is not altogether healthy.

But it also left me a single dad with a little boy. He was a choice. The best choice I have ever made, though being a single dad was forced upon me. I live my life entirely for him and in the end that is the only meaning that makes any sense.
 
yeah it is a bit ridiculous. while we all need something to believe in there are times when religion just is ridiculous like that.

Probably because religion isn't fluid, like life is. If we're believers we have to shape reality to fit our religious preconceptions, when a better philosophy might be to shape our religious impulse to fit with the flux of reality.

I suppose I'm fortunate, having been brought up in an atmosphere that was mostly conducive to debate about the place of religion (and of Zionism). My grandma might have been anti-Zionist and secularist, but she wanted her descendents to choose for themselves whether they cleaved to Judaism or thought Zionism might be a good thing, so I was able to think for, and decide for myself, whereas if I'd had the indoctrination that some of my Jewish friends had, and paid attention to the anti-Arabism and reflex Zionism I was exposed to in synagogue, I might have come to different conclusions.

I'd go as far as to say that the "appeal" of religion isn't generally in the specifics of religious philosophy and/or practice for many of the religious (of whatever faith), but in the sense of belonging, the identity it bestows, which helps bring about the "shaping of reality" that I mention above.
 
This is all very interesting!

I don't really "get" zionism. I can understand it from the point of view of the horrendous persicution Jews have gone through. It's a disapointing response to repression but it's perfectly reasonable. What I don't understand is why so many Western Jews living in comfort with only minor discrimination are so keen on it.

Is it like a religion in it's own right?

Here's and interesting talk by Norman Finkelstein on the "coming breakup of American Zionism". He makes an intersting point that Jews tended to be embarrassed by Israel prior to 1967.
 
But why then. Why, does it all feel so fucking fake and empty. .

Having also been religious and then answering this question differently since then, I've concluded it's because we are living in a inhuman, senseless world.

It feels a bit fake and empty... because it is... religion projects that sense of things onto nature (ruled by a totalizing substitute for man's natural being). Nature become 'unnatural', fake, empty, hostile. The qualities of people are also not only mirrored by god but by a proliferation of unnatural beings, and objects of worship.

That's why it's compared to drugs. It's just arguably (not always) something that requires more effort, something that meets more human qualities. Hence it's more respectable if pitiable at times... An opiate, but a necessary one.

The religions of the world exist as long the condition (i.e poverty) for the world of religion is met.

Basically, religion is spiritual porn. :oops:
 
This is all very interesting!

I don't really "get" zionism. I can understand it from the point of view of the horrendous persicution Jews have gone through. It's a disapointing response to repression but it's perfectly reasonable. What I don't understand is why so many Western Jews living in comfort with only minor discrimination are so keen on it.

Is it like a religion in it's own right?

Here's and interesting talk by Norman Finkelstein on the "coming breakup of American Zionism". He makes an intersting point that Jews tended to be embarrassed by Israel prior to 1967.


I'd compare it to sometihng like the more extreme versions of "political Islam" to be honest, ie a response to persecution, but it's more than that, especially in the west and its popularity among secular Jews. It's like a version of Judaism that doesn't necessarily require any observances and provides a feeling of belonging and something to hate, and for more observant people it's like "political Judaism". It's not exactly a religion in its own right but it's getting pretty fucking close to it and has become to many people an integral part of what "Judaism" is all about. :(

Which is ironic given that 100 years ago it was regarded by almost everyone as a pagan heresy.
 
Thanks for the reply. I'm fascinated.

Your words are very strong - to the extent that I would feel uncomfortable repeating them. I've never thought Jews were that alienated.
 
Really? I'd have thought they were the views of most decent people.

I tend to think of diaspora zionists as harmless if obnoxious. To be honest I tend to think that about political Islam as well.

It's just that zionism is so predominant amongst Jews - I find it difficult to believe that it runs deep.
 
I tend to think of diaspora zionists as harmless if obnoxious. To be honest I tend to think that about political Islam as well.

It's just that zionism is so predominant amongst Jews - I find it difficult to believe that it runs deep.
It's an interesting question as to why it has become, for many, such an integral part of Judaism and Jewishness. But it nonetheless has.
 
If you are Jewish and care about the direction the religion is going in, then it's anything but harmless. I don't like going to synagogue and seeing flags everywhere and seeing promotional materials of a state I feel no allegiance to and whose founding principle and whose policies I detest and as an observant Jew being expected to celebrate the independence day of that state, and saying prayers in various services throughout the year which relate to the people who "built" it, (ie by dispossesing Palestinians). The last time I went to a service before Yom Kippur they had a prayer about various Jewish heroes at times throughout history so they had people like the Macabees and so on and the Jewish martyrs through the centuries and in the holocaust, and then they had a thing about "people who pioneered in the state of israel". I stayed silent in that bit because i don't think people who drove out Palestinians in 1948 deserve to be mentioned in the same prayer as people who died in the holocaust or at the hands of crusaders and everyone turned round and stared at me.

And I don't think Islamists are harmless either, especially after they blew up two trains and a bus.
 
That flag is not my flag and that country is not my country and I object to being told by people as a diaspora Jew that is a Jew's duty to make Aliyah (or to go to Israel) as I have been told by people, they are actually trying to make people believe that the Torah says this, and teaching that it does as a biblical teaching, when it doesn't, as part of a political agenda that is nothing to do with religion. Even during biblical times, many Jews did not live in Israel, Judaism was a prosetylising religion and they weren't encouraging people necessarily to go and move there.
 
Back
Top Bottom