G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP

[agricola]

why wouldn't have such injuries been considered in the first PM??? surely the coroner who carried out the first PM should have been looking for any injuries that might be present on the body, not just concentrating on the heart attack??

They might have been - we know nothing of the first PM except that small portion of it which was released, which consisted essentially of one sentence pointing to the claimed cause of death. It will be interesting to see what the second PM reveals, and how it compares to the first.

 

[_pH_]

ETA: Shouldn't have said 'remark', that would have been an ideal place to use the new word 'vomment'.

i like that new word

 

[Wilf]

They might have been - we know nothing of the first PM except that small portion of it which was released, which consisted essentially of one sentence pointing to the claimed cause of death. It will be interesting to see what the second PM reveals, and how it compares to the first.

... though, according to this source:

http://www.esnews.co.uk/?p=3575

the first PM not only didn't find evidence of cuts and bruises, it actively denied their existence (when they can plainly be seen in various photos of the 2nd assault) -

"The IPCC has ordered a second post-mortem test as part of its inquiry. The first, carried out on Friday, recorded that Mr Tomlinson died of a heart attack and that there were no signs of cuts or bruises to his head or shoulders."

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

They might have been - we know nothing of the first PM except that small portion of it which was released, which consisted essentially of one sentence pointing to the claimed cause of death. It will be interesting to see what the second PM reveals, and how it compares to the first.

And don't you find it quite insidious and pointed that the first PM results are being kept secret? After all, we always hear that if you've done nothing wrong then you shouldn't worry about being open with regards to id cards for example?

 

[agricola]

... though, according to this source:

http://www.esnews.co.uk/?p=3575

the first PM not only didn't find evidence of cuts and bruises, it actively denied their existence (when they can plainly be seen in various photos of the 2nd assault) -

"The IPCC has ordered a second post-mortem test as part of its inquiry. The first, carried out on Friday, recorded that Mr Tomlinson died of a heart attack and that there were no signs of cuts or bruises to his head or shoulders."

Thats true, though one would question the likelyhood of esnews picking that bit about a lack of cuts and bruises up, and the Guardian (nor anyone else, it seems) not doing so.

And don't you find it quite insidious and pointed that the first PM results are being kept secret? After all, we always hear that if you've done nothing wrong then you shouldn't worry about being open with regards to id cards for example?

Not really, no - its a criminal investigation, after all. That said, one would hope that if the two PMs are consistent then that is mentioned, and if they arent then that then forms part of the IPCC enquiry.

 

[laptop]

Thats true, though one would question the likelyhood of esnews picking that bit about a lack of cuts and bruises up, and the Guardian (nor anyone else, it seems) not doing so.

Hmm. Who or what are ESnews? Appears to be a couple of biannual freesheets and advertising-supported website.

So that makes it less likely that it was inside/canteen gossip, and more likely that their reporter was making stuff up on a stands-to-reason basis. I half expected to find

"<!-- CHECK THIS -->"
​

in the copy.


E2A: But as agricola implies, it would be normal for full results of a PM to be revealed only at inquest, or in the course of a criminal trial proceeding while the inquest was adjourned.

 

[AKA pseudonym]

Realistically what kind of time scales are we looking at here..
I am more than aware of the tactics that maybe employed to drag the process out for as long as possible in order to diminish public outcry..
But there must be some kind of restrictions in place, particularly with the charging of the person responsible etc...

What will be important in the coming days/weeks/months is to keep the pressure on and to make the links that this isnt an isolated and accidental case..

 

[Wilf]

Hmm. Who or what are ESnews? Appears to be a couple of biannual freesheets and advertising-supported website.

So that makes it less likely that it was inside/canteen gossip, and more likely that their reporter was making stuff up on a stands-to-reason basis. I half expected to find

"<!-- CHECK THIS -->"
​

in the copy.


E2A: But as agricola implies, it would be normal for full results of a PM to be revealed only at inquest, or in the course of a criminal trial proceeding while the inquest was adjourned.

esnews is a red herring. I had it in my head that someone had said he had no cuts and bruises - I googled and that was the first one that came up with the phrase. The same form of words was used in a number of media - inc. the Timesonline:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6062489.ece

 

[laptop]

esnews is a red herring. I had it in my head that someone had said he had no cuts and bruises - I googled and that was the first one that came up with the phrase. The same form of words was used in a number of media - inc. the Timesonline:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6062489.ece

Ah, right.

Suspect #1 is police briefing, then.

 

[ymu]

Thanks for that 4thwrite. I was trying to remember the form of words to get a successful google on it.

The Home Office pathologist is firmly in the frame then. The IPCC moved very quickly indeed to order a second post mortem - hopefully that means they've made the connection. If, of course, the lie is contained in the post mortem report itself, rather than a bit of inventiveness from the Met when the results were released.

 

[e19896]

Look at this latest bollocks from the Met - you don’t know whether to laugh or cry!!

‘The officer who has been suspended is said to have collapsed at home after discovering he was at the centre of the row.

He came forward on Wednesday and could face a manslaughter charge, but has not yet been interviewed by the IPCC.

A Met source said: ‘He genuinely didn’t know it was him until he saw the video. His wife came home to find him unconscious on the floor, having had some sort of panic attack.

‘He was admitted to hospital and is unfit to be interviewed’

 

[Wilf]

Ah, right.

Suspect #1 is police briefing, then.

My guess too. I imagine it was a leak made around the time that they were still claiming there had been no 'police contact', 'police came under a hail of missiles when trying to save his life' etc. A further guess is that it was a leak made before the leaker was aware of the pictures and video showing actual damage to his head [all speculation, I admit]. Be interesting to see what the actual wording of the first PM was and whether there was any reference to such things.

 

[_pH_]

Look at this latest bollocks from the Met - you don’t know whether to laugh or cry!!

‘The officer who has been suspended is said to have collapsed at home after discovering he was at the centre of the row.

He came forward on Wednesday and could face a manslaughter charge, but has not yet been interviewed by the IPCC.

A Met source said: ‘He genuinely didn’t know it was him until he saw the video. His wife came home to find him unconscious on the floor, having had some sort of panic attack.

‘He was admitted to hospital and is unfit to be interviewed’

rofl

 

[laptop]

'Ang on:

The IPCC told journalists at the start of the week that Mr Tomlinson did not have any bruising or scratches on his head or shoulders, but did not mention whether he had any other signs of injury.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6068850.ece

On reflection... still likely that the IPCC was passing on a message from the Met.

Fools.

Fools trying to prevent an outbreak of public anger, I would guess... but ending up stoking a slow-burn anger...

 

[ymu]

Oh yes. They're still busy digging their own graves, bless them.

 

[Wilf]

Thanks for that 4thwrite. I was trying to remember the form of words to get a successful google on it.

The Home Office pathologist is firmly in the frame then. The IPCC moved very quickly indeed to order a second post mortem - hopefully that means they've made the connection. If, of course, the lie is contained in the post mortem report itself, rather than a bit of inventiveness from the Met when the results were released.

Yes, back in post 1134 I was suggesting the former, but you are right, it could easily be the latter. Either way, it looks like evidence of a cover up or at the very least extreme news management, showing absolute contempt for the victim's family.

 

[AKA pseudonym]

Realistically what kind of time scales are we looking at here..
I am more than aware of the tactics that maybe employed to drag the process out for as long as possible in order to diminish public outcry..
But there must be some kind of restrictions in place, particularly with the charging of the person responsible etc...

What will be important in the coming days/weeks/months is to keep the pressure on and to make the links that this isnt an isolated and accidental case..

oops part of my question answered on t'other thread...

Originally Posted by Times (via Laptop)

Metropolitan police chiefs ordered to justify tactics at G20 protests

...
Senior Scotland Yard officers who led Operation Glencoe, designed to prevent disorder in the capital during the summit, have been summoned to explain their tactics to members of the force’s watchdog body, The Times has learnt.
...
Mr Broadhurst, who gave stark warnings of violence ahead of the protests, will face questions about whether the language he and fellow commanders used increased the possibility of confrontation with demonstrators.

The meeting will take place on April 23 amid mounting public concern and complaints about an aggressive police approach to the demonstrations.

The officers will also have to appear at a public session of the authority the following week.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6073436.ece

btw: Folks theres a fair bit of reposting of info in this thread, natch given its length its understandable... but it would be helpful if peeps could refamiliarise themselves from when they left the thread so we dont end up going in circles..
Just a suggestion!

 

[laptop]

Look at this latest bollocks from the Met - you don’t know whether to laugh or cry!

That appears to have been from the Hate Mail - quoted on a couple of blogs including Ian Bone's - but is no longer in the story that google found earlier today: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...apsed-G20-protests-died-heart-attack-age.html

 

[dylans]

Look at this latest bollocks from the Met - you don’t know whether to laugh or cry!!

‘The officer who has been suspended is said to have collapsed at home after discovering he was at the centre of the row.

He came forward on Wednesday and could face a manslaughter charge, but has not yet been interviewed by the IPCC.

A Met source said: ‘He genuinely didn’t know it was him until he saw the video. His wife came home to find him unconscious on the floor, having had some sort of panic attack.

‘He was admitted to hospital and is unfit to be interviewed’

Wouldn't it be ironic if he had a heart attack and died.

 

[ymu]

btw: Folks theres a fair bit of reposting of info in this thread, natch given its length its understandable... but it would be helpful if peeps could refamiliarise themselves from when they left the thread so we dont end up going in circles..
Just a suggestion!

You mean, like you just posting the exact same quote as I did a few posts back?

Some of the older reports are gaining new relevance - it's the nature of cover-ups. It doesn't matter if there's a bit of accidental repetition on the way.

 

[ymu]

Wouldn't it be ironic if he had a heart attack and died.

Only if you're Alanis Morrisette.

 

[London_Calling]

Anyone else have a flashback to the Jean Charles de Menezes inquest; "the coroner has ruled out a verdict of unlawful killing . . . "

 

[ymu]

You mean, like you just posting the exact same quote as I did a few posts back?

This is an outrageous slur on an honest man for which I offer my heartfelt apologies. I got confused because I had just posted it on the other G20 thread in amongst a lot of laptop posts. This is, however, no excuse for not checking my facts before releasing them to the general public and I apologise again for any implied smear that might impugn the character of the pseudonymous one.

 

[Barking_Mad]

With the huge amount of info here and elsewhere is there a definitive timeline with photos videos, witness quotes etc?

Would it be useful to do a blog or something? Thoughts anyone?

 

[AKA pseudonym]

This is an outrageous slur on an honest man for which I offer my heartfelt apologies. I got confused because I had just posted it on the other G20 thread in amongst a lot of laptop posts. This is, however, no excuse for not checking my facts before releasing them to the general public and I apologise again for any implied smear that might impugn the character of the pseudonymous one.

lol

pity you didnt work wit the met..

 

[AKA pseudonym]

With the huge amount of info here and elsewhere is there a definitive timeline with photos videos, witness quotes etc?

Would it be useful to do a blog or something? Thoughts anyone?

theres been a few suggesting something similar..
I dont mind giving a hand if someone wants to get the ball rolling n PM me.. I cant get to tomoros demo and it would be good to be doing something

Maybe the locked thread could be reopened so peeps could add updated info also somehow?

 

[ymu]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/interactive/2009/apr/08/g20-police-assault-ian-tomlinson

This is an interactive step-by-step guide to his last movements from leaving work onwards. It has links to eye-witness reports, pictures and video appearing along the way - click the symbol on the map to view the media associated.

 

[Wilf]

With the huge amount of info here and elsewhere is there a definitive timeline with photos videos, witness quotes etc?

Would it be useful to do a blog or something? Thoughts anyone?

I was (sort of) getting at that back in 1289* (with apols to AKA ). You'd imagine the family's solicitors will be doing something like that eventually, but in the meantime there is a need for a central information point/timeline - not just for the published details and accounts, but also to encourage people who might have other information, sightings, clips etc.

* Post 1289 that is, not the 13th Century. This has been a long thread though.

 

[Barking_Mad]

theres been a few suggesting something similar..
I dont mind giving a hand if someone wants to get the ball rolling n PM me.. I cant get to tomoros demo and it would be good to be doing something

Maybe the locked thread could be reopened so peeps could add updated info also somehow?

I'm looking at these terror attacks, reading stuff on here that is not widely known elsewhere and wondering whether the media is going to pull all this together and not leave information out of the equation....

I'll set one up if others thinking its a worthwhile idea want to help with info gathering etc..

 

[laptop]

It gets worse:

...the family's police liaison officer told the Guardian he was extremely unhappy the paper had spoken to them. He told the Guardian's reporter not to contact the family "for 48 hours".

Meanwhile official guidance from the IPCC to another Guardian journalist accused the paper of doorstepping the family at a time of grief. The IPCC guided that the family had been deeply distressed by the newspaper's approach. On the same day the IPCC told journalists from rival publications there was "nothing in the story" that Mr Tomlinson had been assaulted by an officer.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/09/g20-police-assault-ian-tomlinson-g201

Scum.

Only just caught up with that article.

My impression is that it was very thoroughly negotiated with the paper's lawyers. It's the way things are phrased.

I suspect the first draft read roughly: "Fuck's sake, the IPCC is actively managing the news on the police's behalf. Here's how..."