Farewell to the InterCity 125?

[Roadkill]

After 30 years, it looks as if the writing is on the wall for one of British Rail's few unequivocal success stories.

Transport Secretary Alistair Darling has announced that this train, so well recognised throughout the country, is to begin being phased out. He is inviting bids for its replacement

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4812304.stm

In fact, this has been in the wind for a couple of years now, and First Great Western are refurbishing some of their Class 43 power cars with new engines, so the phase-out may not be total, but nonetheless, the 125 may not be with us that much longer.

As the article I've linked to points out, the 125's contribution to British transport goes way beyond the engineering. It was the 125 that allowed British Rail to run a higher percentage of 100mph services than anywhere else in Europe, which attracted far more passengers and, together with the savings inherent in the multiple unit formation, made BR's InterCity division very profitable. An outstandingly successful piece of public sector design and engineering IMO - much like the Routemaster bus.

If they're to be replaced, and we are no longer to hear their screaming turbochargers (which I used to be frightened of when I ws little! ), let us hope their successor is better than the attempts made thus far to replace them. Compared with the hopeless Virgin Voyagers the 125s are more spacious, the seats are more comfortable (and you can usually get one!), they're quieter, the ride is smoother and they usually turn up. Even when operated by Vermin Trains. They also look the part, in a '70s sort of way:

So, is it farewell to the 125? Is that a good thing, in that the British railway system has finally got itself together to develop a new HST, or is it just another icon lost?

 

[paolo]

Although I wouldn't quite put it up there as an icon like the Routemaster or whatever, you are bloody right about comfort.

Much more space, less "bus seats" (in fact, no bus seats some time back - every seat had a table). Engines not under the carriages, i.e. much much quieter.

Things like the Pendolinos have a really nice fit out, but then there's naff all space. About a year ago I had to decamp from one of those (no crew) onto an old school 125 for a trip up to Liverpool. It was like getting an upgrade.

 

[DG55]

Look at that blue, white, and yellow colour scheme. Sexay!

 

[Hollis]

Indeed the passing of history.

I remember as a kid.. running across the playing field shouting "125!!! 125!!!" everytime we saw one back in '76.

Then we went on a special family outing to Bristol just to see a 125.. there is a photo of me standing next to the cab of a 125.


Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

 

[marty21]

it was dead exciting when they came out in the 70s...

 

[Miscellaneous]

I must get my lot onto a 125 before its too late then


I think they are lovely looking trains.

 

[Sigmund Fraud]

If they're to be replaced, and we are no longer to hear their screaming turbochargers (which I used to be frightened of when I ws little! )...

Trust me, when you're trying to get some kip in a single glazed travelodge near Didcot parkway you can do without their screaming turbochargers

Youi're right about the interior of the rolling stock though, proper glam 70's glam that is, love it.

But...I went on a TGV a couple of years ago that had a plaque inside announcing that it'd been 'launched' in 1979. That train was embarrasingly light years ahead of a 125, despite being of roughly the same age, faster, smoother, better interior etc.

 

[jæd]

Trust me, when you're trying to get some kip in a single glazed travelodge near Didcot parkway you can do without their screaming turbochargers

Youi're right about the interior of the rolling stock though, proper glam 70's glam that is, love it.

But...I went on a TGV a couple of years ago that had a plaque inside announcing that it'd been 'launched' in 1979. That train was embarrasingly light years ahead of a 125, despite being of roughly the same age, faster, smoother, better interior etc.

Yep... But is a TGV a sexy as a throbbing, muscular 125...? Though TGV's are sexy in their own right. I used to live near the Eurostar route and when I moved away I missed the throbbing of the Eurostars going past...

 

[pogofish]

it was dead exciting when they came out in the 70s...

It was indeed , for a moment it looked that BR were really getting their act together. Only a moment sadly but the first few journies south on the 125s were just so good.

 

[JTG]

shame, those things ARE British railways to me.

Never felt the same way about them since the colour schemes got tarted up with the advent of privatisation though. Good old BR blue and yellow

 

[T & P]

I was watching a newspiece on it yesterday. When the 125 first came out it certainly was a leap forward in technology and comfort, as far as Britain was concerned at least. Double glazing windows, automatic sliding doors between coaches, the fastest diesel engine in the world... Only 9 years earlier steam trains were still operating.

Incidentally, why were the 125 engines diesel? Was it because electrification of the lines was lacking? And if so, has the situation improved or can we expect the replacement trains also to be diesel?

 

[Velouria]

I was watching a newspiece on it yesterday. When the 125 first came out it certainly was a leap forward in technology and comfort, as far as Britain was concerned at least. Double glazing windows, automatic sliding doors between coaches, the fastest diesel engine in the world... Only 9 years earlier steam trains were still operating.

Incidentally, why were the 125 engines diesel? Was it because electrification of the lines was lacking? And if so, has the situation improved or can we expect the replacement trains also to be diesel?

Yup. No electrification north of Edinburgh, for instance ...

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Incidentally, why were the 125 engines diesel? Was it because electrification of the lines was lacking? And if so, has the situation improved or can we expect the replacement trains also to be diesel?

no electrification on the great western.

 

[elliot]

no electrification on the great western.

also the whole great western line is either listed or has some similar historical declaration placed on it which specifies that it's not allowed to be electrified, so the replacement for that bit at least has to be diesel (or, erm.. gas/battery/clockwork)

I doubt they'll get round to replacing them anytime soon, so I wouldn't be too worried. Also FGW are constantly on about rebuilding the ones they have with different engines and interiors etc.

I like the way that as soon as the train slows down the air con sucks in a load of break dust and stinks the carriage out tho - quality bit of engineering there

 

[guinnessdrinker]

also the whole great western line is either listed or has some similar historical declaration placed on it which specifies that it's not allowed to be electrified, so the replacement for that bit at least has to be diesel (or, erm.. gas/battery/clockwork)

I believe there is a bridge and a tunnel near Bristol which are famous for having been built by Brunel. would it be that? you can always use an electrodiesel replacement.

 

[laptop]

I like the way that as soon as the train slows down the air con sucks in a load of brake dust and stinks the carriage out tho - quality bit of engineering there

They wouldn't have been the dernier cri of British railway engineering without a flaw like that, though, would they?

My dad, who was a major railway fan, said that the engineers at Doncaster were (apart from that "ooops!") dead chuffed with them. They'd been waiting years while a bunch of aerospace technologists and other white-coat folk faffed around with the Advanced Passenger Train in Derby - which was supposed to be the curvy-tracks answer to the TGV:

So after a bit they thought "fuck it, we'll build a train," and put their brown overalls on...

 

[Crispy]

Yeah, you'd never fit electric lines through the Box tunnel ('twixt Bristol 'n Bath). Nuclear trains, that's what we need

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Yeah, you'd never fit electric lines through the Box tunnel ('twixt Bristol 'n Bath). Nuclear trains, that's what we need

you could always add third rail in the tunnel, as long as the train was designed for both third rail and overhead.

 

[pembrokestephen]

I believe there is a bridge and a tunnel near Bristol which are famous for having been built by Brunel. would it be that? you can always use an electrodiesel replacement.

Electrodiesels are a bit of an embarrassing bodge: all the time you're electrically powered, you're carting around 30 tons of pointless diesel generator, and when you're using the diesel generator, you're normally running on a fraction of the power that the sparks give you, not to mention the fact that at that point, you're carting around quite a tonnage of pointless transformer.

My guess is that the electrification of the WR would be seriously hampered by having to electrify the Severn Tunnel, which - apart from any other considerations, like size - is also an extremely WET tunnel: when it was first dug, they discovered a huge spring on the line of the boring, which has necessitated the tunnel having to be constantly pumped out by a set of electric pumps (3 active, 3 on standby: it simply CANNOT fail). I suspect that the amount of water sloshing around in the tunnel would make any electrification awkward, to say the least.

 

[pembrokestephen]

you could always add third rail in the tunnel, as long as the train was designed for both third rail and overhead.

I believe that third rail wouldn't pass modern safety standards. Not entirely surprisingly...

 

[Roadkill]

Incidentally, why were the 125 engines diesel? Was it because electrification of the lines was lacking? And if so, has the situation improved or can we expect the replacement trains also to be diesel?

Yes, they were diesels because electrification of most main lines hadn't been completed in the 1970s. Since then, the East Coast Main Line, at least, has been electrified and the 125s successors there - the 225s, incidentally another excellent BR design - are electric.

The 125 really represents the confusion about motive power inherent in British Rail's thinking in the 1950s-70s. The original plan, formulated in the late '40s, was that steam trains would remain in service until at least the late '70s and be replaced directly by electric trains. However, the climate of opinion swung against steam in the 1950s, and a programme of rapid dieselisation was started. Steam trains phased out progressively from then onwards, finishing in the late 1960s. Some lines (eg the West Coast Main Line) were electrified by this point, but a lot weren't (and still aren't, in many cases), so express diesel trains were needed to replace steam engines on the main routes. Hence the Deltics, and subsequently the 125s.

 

[g force]

Real shame...I hate Pendolino's and Voyagers - they look nice but there's no luggage of passenger space, which seems a little odd on public transport. I'm dreading my journey up to Manchester later this week!

 

[pogofish]

Edit, I seem to have said the same thing twice!

 

[Roadkill]

My dad, who was a major railway fan, said that the engineers at Doncaster were (apart from that "ooops!") dead chuffed with them. They'd been waiting years while a bunch of aerospace technologists and other white-coat folk faffed around with the Advanced Passenger Train in Derby - which was supposed to be the curvy-tracks answer to the TGV:

The frustrating thing is that the APT so nearly worked.

British Rail had prototypes in service by the early '80s which were fast (155mph) and reasonably reliable, but they were withdrawn after complaints that the tilting action made people feel sick (hence its nickname: The Vomit Comet!). Some suggest that the journalists on the publicity runs exaggerated the motion sickness problem after overindulging in BR's liquid hospitality. BR weren't so far from sorting the problems out when the Thatcher government lost patience with the project and turned the funding tap off. However, the technology was taken up elsewhere, including on the Pendolino project in Italy. Today's Pendolinos (the Virgin ones are adapted versions of the Italian train) are really just more developed versions of British Rail's original design...

 

[Crispy]

My guess is that the electrification of the WR would be seriously hampered by having to electrify the Severn Tunnel, which - apart from any other considerations, like size - is also an extremely WET tunnel: when it was first dug, they discovered a huge spring on the line of the boring, which has necessitated the tunnel having to be constantly pumped out by a set of electric pumps (3 active, 3 on standby: it simply CANNOT fail). I suspect that the amount of water sloshing around in the tunnel would make any electrification awkward, to say the least.

*Gets off at avonmouth and walks over the bridge next time*

 

[Zaskar]

Over xmas I did lots of rail travel on a variet of trains. The HST was by miles the most comforatble, quiet, and the fastest.

I think of it as a train built like a plane. I think an early prototype was gas turbine powered. That would have been cool.

 

[icemachine]

My guess is that the electrification of the WR would be seriously hampered by having to electrify the Severn Tunnel, which - apart from any other considerations, like size - is also an extremely WET tunnel: when it was first dug, they discovered a huge spring on the line of the boring, which has necessitated the tunnel having to be constantly pumped out by a set of electric pumps (3 active, 3 on standby: it simply CANNOT fail). I suspect that the amount of water sloshing around in the tunnel would make any electrification awkward, to say the least.

I wonder if you've seen the recent Secret Underground episode which featured Chris Serle wading around aforementioned underground slosherama. Top programme, and yes...scarily wet place to send trains through. And the steam pumps were only replaced by electric pumps in the 60s. Surely there would have to be some concrete lining work done before that tunnel saw any OHLE...

 

[OriginalSinner]

Wistful hours spent watching the country go by...

*sighs

 

[DG55]

It would have been interesting if they didnt cut the funding for the ATP, it would have still been in service now. And it would have made the West coast mainline (?) 155mph all those years, but the current pendolinos dont even tilt yet, do they? And even when they do, they will only do 140mph.

Sigh!

 

[icemachine]

It would have been interesting if they didnt cut the funding for the ATP, it would have still been in service now. And it would have made the West coast mainline (?) 155mph all those years, but the current pendolinos dont even tilt yet, do they? And even when they do, they will only do 140mph.

Sigh!

WCML Pendos do tilt but are limited to 125mph. I don't think there are any plans to up that to 140mph. Bloody pity, considering all the money that's been spent on the line improvements.