Extinction Rebellion

[Gramsci]

A Green New Deal would if it succeeds get more support from working people.

It would help alleviate some of the issues I list below which put people off.

At work whilst not all the van drivers I know are against what XR are doing. But recent measures have hit them hard. Like the ULEZ in London. A lot of delivery people are "self employed". Its not easy to change your van when faced with measures like this. Which though necessary dont affect everyone equally.

Or my local neighborhood were green measure of closing roads through the estate were met with such suspicion by estate residents the Council dropped the scheme.

And demonstrations at Billingsgate market by animal rights protestors linked to XR aren't going to help. I come from a working class community in South West who depend on fishing. Fish farming industry is causing problems not fishing as such. Animal rights activists are at liberty to make moral case against eating fish but that isn't the same as being against fossil fuels which cause climate change.

 

[Red Sky]

A Green New Deal would if it succeeds get more support from working people.

It would help alleviate some of the issues I list below which put people off.

At work whilst not all the van drivers I know are against what XR are doing. But recent measures have hit them hard. Like the ULEZ in London. A lot of delivery people are "self employed". Its not easy to change your van when faced with measures like this. Which though necessary dont affect everyone equally.

Or my local neighborhood were green measure of closing roads through the estate were met with such suspicion by estate residents the Council dropped the scheme.

And demonstrations at Billingsgate market by animal rights protestors linked to XR aren't going to help. I come from a working class community in South West who depend on fishing. Fish farming industry is causing problems not fishing as such. Animal rights activists are at liberty to make moral case against eating fish but that isn't the same as being against fossil fuels which cause climate change.

Fishing is enormously environmentally destructive. XR isn't just about greenhouse gases , it's about the overall damage to eco systems.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The XR I talked to in Trafalgar Square wanted XR to reflect on the practise. I don't see this happening at the moment. XR isn't set up that way.

It's hard to see how reflection or even basic feedback is going to work with their current model. They do seem to have finally upped their game a bit with their legal advice but that was after a lot of public pressure from a lot of people outside XR.

There is of course the danger of feedback and self-reflection becoming the major or sole focus of an organisation, but as with most things there's a middle ground in there somewhere.

 

[Red Sky]

Interesting to see Steve Hedley of the RMT was speaking in Trafalgar square today.

 

[smokedout]

And demonstrations at Billingsgate market by animal rights protestors linked to XR aren't going to help. I come from a working class community in South West who depend on fishing. Fish farming industry is causing problems not fishing as such. Animal rights activists are at liberty to make moral case against eating fish but that isn't the same as being against fossil fuels which cause climate change.

From the couple of people involved with Animal Rebellion I've met, one very involved and one tangenitally, they don't give a shit about that. They don't seem to have any politics beyond shouting at people for not being vegan and demanding people stop having kids. They are profoundly anti-human, seem to relish the coming apocalypse which they are convinced is imminent and unlike most militant AR activists of the past have no grounding in anarchism or links to wider struggles. They were initially threatening to shut down Smithfield Meat Market for the whole two weeks although someone seems to have seen sense and called that off. I guess it's easier to fuck up market traders than take on someone like Huntingdon Life Sciences.

 

[Gramsci]

Fishing is enormously environmentally destructive. XR isn't just about greenhouse gases , it's about the overall damage to eco systems.

From what I've seen this week its about Greenhouse Gases. Except for the animals rights lot at Billingsgate telling me not to eat fish for reasons that have nothing to do with green house gases

I said in my post that fish farming is a problem.

But the little trawler in my home town Plymouth isn't. That is not industrial scale fishing nor is it fish farming.

Plus looks at XR website. Says this:

Each generation is given two things: one is the gift of the world, and the other is the duty of keeping it safe for those to come. The generations of yesterday trust those of today not to take more than their share, and those of tomorrow trust their elders to care for it.

About Us - Extinction Rebellion

Fishing in my area has been going on for generations. Its small scale. Its not like the average fisherman in my home town is to be equated with a CEO of Shell.

Unless being vegan is a XR objective?

 

[Miss-Shelf]

Been reading a bit about the Green New Deal today following on from what Miss-Shelf said about many XR supporting Labour party for a Green Deal. And me posting I'd like to see more of a link with climate change and social justice.

The Green New Deal isn't new. Its been around since the beginning of the recent economic crisis. Economists and Greens came together to put together alternative economic strategy. It was ignored at the time. Now its back with some Democrats in US taking it on board.

The Green New Deal in short a way to move to carbon free economy in a way that also improves the lot of the working class.

Ann Pettifor, one of the economists who worked on it, said in recent interview on the GND that,



She is a good read. She has written a book on GND I'd like to read.

GND is Keynesian not about overthrowing Capitalism. So its about Government directing the economy more. She is clear on the resistance of capital to even this reformist deal:


So she is linking climate change to how capitalism operates. That to move to an economy that is green needs a discussion of how capital operates. Its going to resist any interference by government.

Also found this brief summary of a GND updated for Brexit Britain on New Economics Foundation website. NEF were one of the original groups along with green people like Lucas who wrote the first GND.

edit: oops forgot to put link to Pettifor interview:

How the Green New Deal was born - The Green New Deal Group

I went to a talk by James Meadway [from NEF] and Labour for a GND [interview about his economic vision ]

I'd agree

GND is Keynesian not about overthrowing Capitalism. So its about Government directing the economy more. She is clear on the resistance of capital to even this reformist deal:
So she is linking climate change to how capitalism operates. That to move to an economy that is green needs a discussion of how capital operates. Its going to resist any interference by government.

 

[Gramsci]

I went to a talk by James Meadway [from NEF] and Labour for a GND [interview about his economic vision ]

I'd agree

A lot in that interview. Lost me on the last bit about MMT. That's a debate I don't know about.

The linking of a new economic strategy to greening the economy is important debate to be had. He prefers the term Green Industrial Revolution. As Green New Deal depends on understanding of US recent past. Where as a Green Industrial Revolution links to this countries past and is what is needed. But this time with social justice.

This bit is about jobs:

Fourth, I think describing that vision has to also look beyond simply what is the economic norm today – it’s clear, for instance, that reductions in working time are strongly associated with reductions in environmental damage. We need to think far more radically and creatively about how decarbonisation is going to happen, and how this can be part of a vision for a better society for everyone.

That starts, I think, with opening up discussions about industrial strategy, which will include a heavy focus on government spending and investment, and on delivering for the different regions – alongside a discussion about ownership. For example, if we are looking to adapt some of the principles of the circular economy – reducing waste and encouraging reuse – we will also be looking to create large numbers of jobs in repair, reconstruction and reprogramming. This can be small-scale, localised production and manufacture. Likewise, if we want a mass programme of loft insulation, as in the Labour manifesto, it’ll create tens of thousands of jobs not only for those installing the insulation, but also down the supply chain in the batch production of moulded insulation for specific houses. And new manufacturing technologies like 3d printing, meanwhile, offer the prospect of more efficient, more specialised production at a smaller scale. All of this can (and should) be done with decentralised forms of ownership – that as in places like Preston we should be looking to create forms of worker and co-operative ownership to deliver this.

This is all good stuff. Meadway was or still is in Counterfire.

 

[Marty1]

Extinction Rebellion co-leader Skeena Rathor grilled on Good Morning Britain show, challenged on whether the XR protest is basically not changing anyone’s mind, the event is a middle class street party, a huge waste of police resources that ultimately affects the most poor and vulnerable in society, and those participating are hypocritical fossil fuel consuming carbon emitters!

Spoiler: warning - also features Piers Morgan

Also mention of XR protestors using diesel generators.

Quite an entertaining exchange that featured some of the videos already posted on this thread.

 

[redcogs]

It is probably a mistake for XR not to take it on the chin when accused of hypocrisy. Everyone of us is locked into the carbon economy, may as well own up and move on to the main argument (creating an ecologically friendly world economy that functions in the interests of every citizen, not the 'top' few percent). Playing the bourgoise political game at the same time as asking for the Truth to be told (and faced ) doesn't fit that well for me.

Not to excuse Pies Morgan's boorishness at all btw.

 

[Gramsci]

Accusing people of hyprocrisy is typical right wing tactic. Take gentrification. Be critical of it and then ones posts get scrutinised for evidence of "hypocrisy". People who are happy with the how society is ( with a few tweaks to chow how liberal they are) see it as a sport to ridicule the silly "hypocritical" lefties.

Another one from the right is insisting that they really care about the poor and vulnerable.

People don't live in a society of their own choosing. So if they protest to change it then its easy to accuse them of hyprocrisy.

 

[xenon]

It is probably a mistake for XR not to take it on the chin when accused of hypocrisy. Everyone of us is locked into the carbon economy, may as well own up and move on to the main argument (creating an ecologically friendly world economy that functions in the interests of every citizen, not the 'top' few percent). Playing the bourgoise political game at the same time as asking for the Truth to be told (and faced ) doesn't fit that well for me.

Not to excuse Pies Morgan's boorishness at all btw.

Pretty much what Sarah Allan did on LBC this morning when confronted by a boneheaded caller with the do you have pets, do you drive, gotya shtick.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Accusing people of hyprocrisy is typical right wing tactic. Take gentrification. Be critical of it and then ones posts get scrutinised for evidence of "hypocrisy". People who are happy with the how society is ( with a few tweaks to chow how liberal they are) see it as a sport to ridicule the silly "hypocritical" lefties.

Another one from the right is insisting that they really care about the poor and vulnerable.

People don't live in a society of their own choosing. So if they protest to change it then its easy to accuse them of hyprocrisy.

It's designed to be a no-win question anyway. The only possible direct responses then get used to make you seem a liar ("no I don't do that"), a hypocrite ("yeah I do that"), and/or holier-than-thou ("yeah I do that but I am trying my best to reduce my personal impact"). Also it is designed to distract attention from any systemic critique by concentrating on individuals.

There's no point in engaging with people like Morgan who are not arguing in good faith.

 

[TopCat]

Interesting to see Steve Hedley of the RMT was speaking in Trafalgar square today.

What did he say?

 

[TopCat]

Pretty much what Sarah Allan did on LBC this morning when confronted by a boneheaded caller with the do you have pets, do you drive, gotya shtick.

A few people have always been vocal about self righteous green types gunning for their V8 four wheel drives. Make it clear this is not what you are aiming at, gobby petrol heads.
It's transport and fuelling lives for the mass.

 

[agricola]

Accusing people of hyprocrisy is typical right wing tactic. Take gentrification. Be critical of it and then ones posts get scrutinised for evidence of "hypocrisy". People who are happy with the how society is ( with a few tweaks to chow how liberal they are) see it as a sport to ridicule the silly "hypocritical" lefties.

Another one from the right is insisting that they really care about the poor and vulnerable.

People don't live in a society of their own choosing. So if they protest to change it then its easy to accuse them of hyprocrisy.

TBH the worst thing about that tactic is that the opponents of the right are so reluctant to use it themselves.

 

[Marty1]

MP David Davies has called for a tax investigation into XR’s finances after docs have been leaked showing 168 activists claiming expenses from XR totalling over £200,000.

Apparently someone called Tamsin Omond (granddaughter of Dorset baron Sir Thomas Lee) claimed £1340 between Nov to Dec last year.

 

[LDC]

Tamsin Omond's politics have always been shit, but bleating about an average of about £1,200 expenses claims per person seems a little off coming from an MP. I hope the left has more sense than to join in with that line of 'criticism'...?

 

[chilango]

Tamsin Omond a very familiar name/face.

Anyone remember why?

 

[LDC]

Tamsin Omond a very familiar name/face.

Anyone remember why?

Plane Stupid and I think The Green Party among other things. Was briefly in the media a fair bit. The enemy within.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Tamsin Omond's politics have always been shit, but bleating about an average of about £1,200 expenses claims per person seems a little off coming from an MP. I hope the left has more sense than to join in with that line of 'criticism'...?

Anything seems a little off coming from fucking David Davis.

I like how there is a section in his Wikipedia profile called simply "Torture".

 

[chilango]

Plane Stupid and I think The Green Party among other things. Was briefly in the media a fair bit. The enemy within.

Westminster School and Cambridge fwiw.

 

[editor]

Crowdfunder: Crowdfunder set up to support Extinction Rebellion Lambeth arrestees

 

[chilango]

Westminster School and Cambridge fwiw.

Ironically David Davis has a far less privileged background than Omond.

 

[ddraig]

Crowdfunder: Crowdfunder set up to support Extinction Rebellion Lambeth arrestees

They (XR) have already got shitloads of money!

 

[A380]

 

[Marty1]

They (XR) have already got shitloads of money!

They should compensate all the self employed cabbies and couriers etc who have lost work due to their protest rather than pay for activists imo.

 

[editor]

They should compensate all the self employed cabbies and couriers etc who have lost work due to their protest rather than pay for activists imo.

Should the self employed cabbies also be reimbursing members of the public who have been inconvenienced through their own protests? And if not, why not?

 

[Marty1]

Should the self employed cabbies also be reimbursing members of the public who have been inconvenienced through their own protests? And if not, why not?

I’m not aware of cabbies protests. Have couriers also had protests?

 

[kenny g]

They should compensate all the self employed cabbies and couriers etc who have lost work due to their protest rather than pay for activists imo.

All cabbies should compensate pedestrians, cyclists, deliverypeeps, and drivers who have been delayed by cabbies occupying the road as cabbies.