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Extinction Rebellion

chilango said:
But it's perfectly understandable given the likely class background of the leadership that they haven't yet learned this.

They may learn it in due course though.

Till then it's certainly an issue.
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Do you not think it's incumbent upon people to do the learning bit first and then the bit that involves putting others at risk?
 
gosub said:
As come able as corcern about CO2 levels is, there also a finite amount of oxygen in the universe and these fuckers are robbing it.
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Never mind the co2, worry about the nitrous oxide which is hundreds of times worse and attacks ozone

No one's been monitoring emissions of that
 
chilango said:
But it's perfectly understandable given the likely class background of the leadership that they haven't yet learned this.

They may learn it in due course though.

Till then it's certainly an issue.
Click to expand...
There s plenty of people here (parliament Sq) who know not to talk to police or to talk to police without saying anything
People planning bigger impact actions won't be sharing that with police or many outside a small group

I didn't expect parliament sq to be here today and yet it's bigger than yesterday....loads of new people arrived to help....

One person up a tree and roped to someone locked on to a weight on the ground has helped draw cameras here and create more of a road block
 
ShiftyBagLady said:
This does seem to be a congregation of those who do.... :hmm:
But I'm not hating on them. Whatever clothes they show up in, they're committed and present and I've got respect for their tenacity.
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I think the fact that it is front page news for a series of days, discussed on newsnight etc, and is logistically very well coordinated, it sure as hell beats marching a few hundred thousand people down the back streets of the west end on a Sunday morning to garner a few inches of column space in the guardian and the streets strewn with abandoned SWP placards and soggy lefty newspapers that no ones read. Think the Iraq war, Brexit marches etc, The government can’t so easily ignore this until the main event is over, because there is no main event. And they’re on the back foot to a certain extend due to the apparent spontaneity of some of the disruption stunts, and the sheer duration of the protest. I think this lot have shown the tired out of date left that there is a new way to force an issue into the public debate rather than concentrating huge resources into one big headline event. Good for the hippies I say.
I do feel they’ve shown a degree of political nativity in targeting airports during the holiday season. A lot of working class families will be hit and family holidays ruined. That’s different to taxi drivers and commuters suffering a few diversions in their journeys around London. The challenge for socialists as I see it is to ensure that the moves to hit carbon targets are paid by those that consume the most, and not the working classes. That’s why I’m a socialist and not a green, but also why I give my unconditional but not uncritical support to the hippies in this initiative. Sour grapes from some on the left I feel
 
Southlondon said:
I think the fact that it is front page news for a series of days, discussed on newsnight etc, and is logistically very well coordinated, it sure as hell beats marching a few hundred thousand people down the back streets of the west end on a Sunday morning to garner a few inches of column space in the guardian and the streets strewn with abandoned SWP placards and soggy lefty newspapers that no ones read. Think the Iraq war, Brexit marches etc, The government can’t so easily ignore this until the main event is over, because there is no main event. And they’re on the back foot to a certain extend due to the apparent spontaneity of some of the disruption stunts, and the sheer duration of the protest. I think this lot have shown the tired out of date left that there is a new way to force an issue into the public debate rather than concentrating huge resources into one big headline event. Good for the hippies I say.
I do feel they’ve shown a degree of political nativity in targeting airports during the holiday season. A lot of working class families will be hit and family holidays ruined. That’s different to taxi drivers and commuters suffering a few diversions in their journeys around London. The challenge for socialists as I see it is to ensure that the moves to hit carbon targets are paid by those that consume the most, and not the working classes. That’s why I’m a socialist and not a green, but also why I give my unconditional but not uncritical support to the hippies in this initiative. Sour grapes from some on the left I feel
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You do know that term starts again on Tuesday for much of london, right? It's not like you're going to get a ton of people embarking on a week away with the kids now. I suppose flights coming back may be diverted, which could be a great pain, but the vast majority of families, wc or otherwise, will already have embarked and so won't have out bound flights cancelled
 
Southlondon said:
I think the fact that it is front page news for a series of days, discussed on newsnight etc, and is logistically very well coordinated, it sure as hell beats marching a few hundred thousand people down the back streets of the west end on a Sunday morning to garner a few inches of column space in the guardian and the streets strewn with abandoned SWP placards and soggy lefty newspapers that no ones read. Think the Iraq war, Brexit marches etc, The government can’t so easily ignore this until the main event is over, because there is no main event. And they’re on the back foot to a certain extend due to the apparent spontaneity of some of the disruption stunts, and the sheer duration of the protest. I think this lot have shown the tired out of date left that there is a new way to force an issue into the public debate rather than concentrating huge resources into one big headline event. Good for the hippies I say.
I do feel they’ve shown a degree of political nativity in targeting airports during the holiday season. A lot of working class families will be hit and family holidays ruined. That’s different to taxi drivers and commuters suffering a few diversions in their journeys around London. The challenge for socialists as I see it is to ensure that the moves to hit carbon targets are paid by those that consume the most, and not the working classes. That’s why I’m a socialist and not a green, but also why I give my unconditional but not uncritical support to the hippies in this initiative. Sour grapes from some on the left I feel
Click to expand...
I disagree with you on a couple of things but am aware (and hopeful) that this is only the early stage of their intended two week occupation. I don't think this has had nearly enough media coverage but the longer it goes on and the more direct actions taken the more it will be reported. Media coverage as it has been has been shit and I don't think XR has been very well represented. Coverage has been allowed to focus on the disruption and the public haven't been presented with the facts, the naming and shaming or predictions which might make them join the cause, write to councils and MPs, start online petitions etc during this protest.
Also, the Iraq march was ignored, likewise the Brexit march. Didn't change policy did they? Provoked a bit of hand wringing but made so difference. They don't care, they're all off on their holidays and aren't making any public statements about it are they? Call my jaded but I don't think it will have the impact on policy it needs to have, so that pisses me off...

I've got a couple more reservations but I don't want to sound negative. Fundamentally I think they're doing a good thing and they're doing it well. I really hope that this will lead to more actions and more public engagement.
 
Took this picture of this girl wednesday.
_DSC0031.JPG
D4c7Z8dX4AEzwmb.jpg:large

Saw her tonight on bbc news.
 
Southlondon said:
I do feel they’ve shown a degree of political nativity in targeting airports during the holiday season. A lot of working class families will be hit and family holidays ruined. That’s different to taxi drivers and commuters suffering a few diversions in their journeys around London.
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"Working class". So taxi drivers and people who use busses are not "working class".
Its just lazy and sloppy analysis of who makes up the working population of the UK.
"Working class good middle class bad" when there is no definition of it.
And here is a rocket up your arse, when it comes to climate change, we are the rich, we are the problem.

PercentageCO2-705x498.png

"The working class" of the UK, US, Germany, Australia, Japan and other developed world countries are the rich in this context. The people in the bottom 20% deciles of incomes will not be missing flights because of protests, they will not have to sit on a bus for a few extra hours per week because some slightly richer hippy is on a bridge. They live on dollars a day equivalent. A climate caused drought is not a hose pipe ban, its a crop failure for people who cannot afford to supplement their crops with imported food by cash or other means. Its people on the fertile river deltas with their low tidal ranges that will make them far more vulnerable to sea level rise than people in regions like they UK where our coastal defences are better adapted. Its people living in the pressure cooker city slums of low income states that will face the large influx of refugees from natural disasters driven by climate change into urban spaces with no facilities to take them.

People at airports are not the victims of climate change protests, they are the cause of climate change.
People who live in a society emitting 6 tonnes of CO2 per person per year are not the oppressed masses, they are those who are diverting their pollution and its enormous consequences to the billions who are not causing this problem.
 
ferrelhadley said:
"Working class". So taxi drivers and people who use busses are not "working class".
Its just lazy and sloppy analysis of who makes up the working population of the UK.
"Working class good middle class bad" when there is no definition of it.
And here is a rocket up your arse, when it comes to climate change, we are the rich, we are the problem.

PercentageCO2-705x498.png

"The working class" of the UK, US, Germany, Australia, Japan and other developed world countries are the rich in this context. The people in the bottom 20% deciles of incomes will not be missing flights because of protests, they will not have to sit on a bus for a few extra hours per week because some slightly richer hippy is on a bridge. They live on dollars a day equivalent. A climate caused drought is not a hose pipe ban, its a crop failure for people who cannot afford to supplement their crops with imported food by cash or other means. Its people on the fertile river deltas with their low tidal ranges that will make them far more vulnerable to sea level rise than people in regions like they UK where our coastal defences are better adapted. Its people living in the pressure cooker city slums of low income states that will face the large influx of refugees from natural disasters driven by climate change into urban spaces with no facilities to take them.

People at airports are not the victims of climate change protests, they are the cause of climate change.
People who live in a society emitting 6 tonnes of CO2 per person per year are not the oppressed masses, they are those who are diverting their pollution and its enormous consequences to the billions who are not causing this problem.
Click to expand...

According to admittedly the first figures I could find, to be in the top 40% or so richest people requires assets of at least $10,000, and the top 8 or 9% assets of at least $100,000. There are many people in the UK who do not meet that threshold,and lots of them get the bus to work.

Not meant as a criticism of XR btw, just the idea that because the UK is a rich country that we are all the problem. The millions of people in the UK on benefits, poverty wages or pension credit are not responsible for climate change, the rich, and to a lesser degree the more affluent middle clsses are, mostly because they benefit from, and as such support, the capitalist system which is creating the climate disaster.
 
smokedout said:
According to admittedly the first figures I could find, to be in the top 40% or so richest people requires assets of at least $10,000, and the top 8 or 9% assets of at least $100,000. There are many people in the UK who do not meet that threshold,and lots of them get the bus to work.

Not meant as a criticism of XR btw, just the idea that because the UK is a rich country that we are all the problem. The millions of people in the UK on benefits, poverty wages or pension credit are not responsible for climate change, the rich, and to a lesser degree the more affluent middle clsses are, mostly because they benefit from, and as such support, the capitalist system which is creating the climate disaster.
Click to expand...
Well okay but I don't see how that idea is connected to this thread at all. I've seen nothing in XR that is preaching about how people need to stop doing X and do Y - it's all very clear that there's a systemic problem which can't be dealt with by individual action (much is explicitly anti-capitalist). Participants might be doing things like going veggie or whatever on an individual basis but it's not a message of the movement.
 
smokedout said:
According to admittedly the first figures I could find, to be in the top 40% or so richest people requires assets of at least $10,000, and the top 8 or 9% assets of at least $100,000. There are many people in the UK who do not meet that threshold,and lots of them get the bus to work.

Not meant as a criticism of XR btw, just the idea that because the UK is a rich country that we are all the problem. The millions of people in the UK on benefits, poverty wages or pension credit are not responsible for climate change, the rich, and to a lesser degree the more affluent middle clsses are, mostly because they benefit from, and as such support, the capitalist system which is creating the climate disaster.
Click to expand...

To be in the top 10% by income you need to earn between 20 and 50 usd per day or more.

World Population by Income
 
Riklet said:
This isnt quite true or fair.

Easy to say this when you havent actually come down and had a look. There are lots of different opinions and more militant voices too. Sure there are a few daft spokespeople but that doesnt define thousands of people. There is also lots of public engagement and interest, from what Ive seen. People who might not otherwise be involved or hear about such stuff.

I am aware of the purer than pure criticisms to be made, but the fact that the liberal press and establishment are moaning about economic impact, effect on daily lives and undemocratic forceful action should show us the need for solidarity and support. Maybe not uncritically but definitely not just moaning and dismissing. Whats the point in left politics if it isnt engaging with whats happening now rather than the idealised past or future.
Click to expand...

Too true re the public engagement. Was at Oxford circus yesterday and the person standing in front of me seemingly engrossed in the words of a speaker was dragged off by her two mates who had just finished their shopping. At the end of the day you can be as purist as you like but as we now know RTS had spycops in its ranks I am not sure to what purpose it plays rather than division.
 
Southlondon said:
I do feel they’ve shown a degree of political nativity in targeting airports during the holiday season. A lot of working class families will be hit and family holidays ruined. That’s different to taxi drivers and commuters suffering a few diversions in their journeys around London.
Click to expand...

I wonder how long the conversations between the doctors, lawyers, teachers, vicars, and academics of XR were, regarding not wanting to inconvenience the working class.
 
Last edited:
Miss-Shelf said:
There s plenty of people here (parliament Sq) who know not to talk to police or to talk to police without saying anything
People planning bigger impact actions won't be sharing that with police or many outside a small group

I didn't expect parliament sq to be here today and yet it's bigger than yesterday....loads of new people arrived to help....

One person up a tree and roped to someone locked on to a weight on the ground has helped draw cameras here and create more of a road block
Click to expand...

I dropped some food off at Waterloo and saw helicopter that looked like it was over Parliament square about 7pm.

Hope its ok in Parliament Sq.

Waterloo Bridge was chilled out with entertainment this evening.

Will do the rounds tomorrow putting some food donations.Taking photos. I want to see Marble Arch. Which isn't on my circuit workdays.

RU at Parliament Square?
 
FridgeMagnet said:
Well okay but I don't see how that idea is connected to this thread at all. I've seen nothing in XR that is preaching about how people need to stop doing X and do Y - it's all very clear that there's a systemic problem which can't be dealt with by individual action (much is explicitly anti-capitalist). Participants might be doing things like going veggie or whatever on an individual basis but it's not a message of the movement.
Click to expand...

I said it wasn't a criticism of XR, it was a response to the comment that "we" as in all of us in the UK are the problem. There are a substantial number of people in the UK, and elsewhere in the West, living a hand to mouth existence who are not responsible for this crisis. If I did have a criticism of XR, it would be that there is no clear attempt to link climate change to capitalism and the horrendous exploitation of people and planet it depends on, or to engage with those people who are the victims of it, who might well be responsive to a movement that explicitly targetted the rich as both the instigators of climate disaster and the poverty and shit lives so many people are forced to endure, even in the midst of great affluence.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
Well okay but I don't see how that idea is connected to this thread at all. I've seen nothing in XR that is preaching about how people need to stop doing X and do Y - it's all very clear that there's a systemic problem which can't be dealt with by individual action (much is explicitly anti-capitalist). Participants might be doing things like going veggie or whatever on an individual basis but it's not a message of the movement.
Click to expand...

Oh and the only XR organiser Ive met immediately launched into a tirade and called me a speciesist and murderer within seconds of meeting me and finding out I wasn't vegan, but just vegetarian. I'm not suggesting that is typical at all, but it didn't really endear me to the movement.
 
smokedout said:
Oh and the only XR organiser Ive met immediately launched into a tirade and called me a speciesist and murderer within seconds of meeting me and finding out I wasn't vegan, but just vegetarian. I'm not suggesting that is typical at all, but it didn't really endear me to the movement.
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention that.

I've heard a few people watching the news and conflating XR and Vegans and talking of these protests as an continuation or extension of vegan proselyting.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
Well okay but I don't see how that idea is connected to this thread at all. I've seen nothing in XR that is preaching about how people need to stop doing X and do Y - it's all very clear that there's a systemic problem which can't be dealt with by individual action (much is explicitly anti-capitalist). Participants might be doing things like going veggie or whatever on an individual basis but it's not a message of the movement.
Click to expand...

As I've been around the various protests I have seen "preaching". Handmade posters advocating Veganism, Votes for Animals for example. Lot of stuff about being Vegan.

So I think there is ambivalent position , in practise, of whether this is individual or systemic.

There also appears to be generational difference. With the older seeing it as systemic and younger foregrounding individual choices.
 
Gramsci said:
As I've been around the various protests I have seen "preaching". Handmade posters advocating Veganism, Votes for Animals for example. Lot of stuff about being Vegan.

So I think there is ambivalent position , in practise, of whether this is individual or systemic.

There also appears to be generational difference. With the older seeing it as systemic and younger foregrounding individual choices.
Click to expand...
Votes for animals?
 
smokedout said:
Oh and the only XR organiser Ive met immediately launched into a tirade and called me a speciesist and murderer within seconds of meeting me and finding out I wasn't vegan, but just vegetarian. I'm not suggesting that is typical at all, but it didn't really endear me to the movement.
Click to expand...

You've met an XR organiser? That's a very grand title. What does it actually mean?
 
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