Extinction Rebellion

[Gramsci]

Votes for animals?

Yes she had T Shirt saying votes for animals. As posted by others "speciesism" is something I come across at the protests.

This wasn't the case in first few days.

As a cat owner I'm not keen on cats getting the vote. They are only interested in themselves. Self Centred lot are felines.

 

[smokedout]

You've met an XR organiser? That's a very grand title. What does it actually mean?

Someone who is involved in organising XR events and protests I guess. That's just how they were introduced to me.

 

[brogdale]

Yes she had T Shirt saying votes for animals. As posted by others "speciesism" is something I come across at the protests.

This wasn't the case in first few days.

As a cat owner I'm not keen on cats getting the vote. They are only interested in themselves. Self Centred lot are felines.

Dogs OK, though?

 

[smokedout]

Yes she had T Shirt saying votes for animals. As posted by others "speciesism" is something I come across at the protests.

This wasn't the case in first few days.

As a cat owner I'm not keen on cats getting the vote. They are only interested in themselves. Self Centred lot are felines.

Yeah but rabbits and ants would vote for full communism and there's fucking loads of them.

 

[Gramsci]

Dogs OK, though?

Dogs are ok. They would vote same way as there human owners. Dogs being dogs.

 

[LDC]

I said it wasn't a criticism of XR, it was a response to the comment that "we" as in all of us in the UK are the problem. There are a substantial number of people in the UK, and elsewhere in the West, living a hand to mouth existence who are not responsible for this crisis. If I did have a criticism of XR, it would be that there is no clear attempt to link climate change to capitalism and the horrendous exploitation of people and planet it depends on, or to engage with those people who are the victims of it, who might well be responsive to a movement that explicitly targetted the rich as both the instigators of climate disaster and the poverty and shit lives so many people are forced to endure, even in the midst of great affluence.

An interview I saw a bit ago with a XR spokesperson was very clear that this was a 'non-political' problem that crossed left wing/right wing boundaries. Sure that's not everyone's position but

 

[LDC]

Oh and the only XR organiser Ive met immediately launched into a tirade and called me a speciesist and murderer within seconds of meeting me and finding out I wasn't vegan, but just vegetarian. I'm not suggesting that is typical at all, but it didn't really endear me to the movement.

Anyone that starts talking about 'speciesim' automatically gets added to my 'you've got shit politics and I ignore everything else you say' list.

(E2A: drunk posting)

 

[Miss-Shelf]

I dropped some food off at Waterloo and saw helicopter that looked like it was over Parliament square about 7pm.

Hope its ok in Parliament Sq.

Waterloo Bridge was chilled out with entertainment this evening.

Will do the rounds tomorrow putting some food donations.Taking photos. I want to see Marble Arch. Which isn't on my circuit workdays.

RU at Parliament Square?

Yes ...doing well being support for people locked on. All corners still holding

 

[smokedout]

An interview I saw a bit ago with a XR spokesperson was very clear that this was a 'non-political' problem that crossed left wing/right wing boundaries. Sure that's not everyone's position but

The people behind it seem depressingly naive. I watched this video on non violence from one of the founders earlier, and its relentlessly dreadful, like listening to some drunk hippy's plans to bring down the government based on a load of top of their head nonsense at the end of an all night party.

Edit: Not that this is any reflection on those out on the streets taking action.

 

[LDC]

I think the mistake here is confusing revolutionary left wing politics with direct action campaigns.

In the case of climate change I think a pretty reasonable argument can be made that it's a topic that needs urgent addressing outside that dynamic, although it is a dangerous road to go down....

 

[Pickman's model]

Dogs are ok. They would vote same way as there human owners. Dogs being dogs.

Not so sure, dogs aren't so stupid

 

[Gramsci]

"Working class". So taxi drivers and people who use busses are not "working class".
Its just lazy and sloppy analysis of who makes up the working population of the UK.
"Working class good middle class bad" when there is no definition of it.
And here is a rocket up your arse, when it comes to climate change, we are the rich, we are the problem.

"The working class" of the UK, US, Germany, Australia, Japan and other developed world countries are the rich in this context. The people in the bottom 20% deciles of incomes will not be missing flights because of protests, they will not have to sit on a bus for a few extra hours per week because some slightly richer hippy is on a bridge. They live on dollars a day equivalent. A climate caused drought is not a hose pipe ban, its a crop failure for people who cannot afford to supplement their crops with imported food by cash or other means. Its people on the fertile river deltas with their low tidal ranges that will make them far more vulnerable to sea level rise than people in regions like they UK where our coastal defences are better adapted. Its people living in the pressure cooker city slums of low income states that will face the large influx of refugees from natural disasters driven by climate change into urban spaces with no facilities to take them.

People at airports are not the victims of climate change protests, they are the cause of climate change.
People who live in a society emitting 6 tonnes of CO2 per person per year are not the oppressed masses, they are those who are diverting their pollution and its enormous consequences to the billions who are not causing this problem.

You are misreading Southlondon imo. He is not saying that taxi drivers aren't working class. He is saying that blocking airports now may affect ordinary working class off on a cheap package holiday. Its not going to affect the wealthy.

If one is going to get support for a change to zero carbon economy telling ordinary working people, who are struggling to pay the bills and have a life ,that they are the problem isn't going to get much support.

Its been asked here why not many Londoners are involved. In my area of London cuts to youth services, knife crime, etc are the main issues at the moment. I have been part of a group of residents trying to save an adventure playground. To tell the people in my local community , one of the most deprived in London, that they are part of the problem and wealthy in comparison to rest of world isn't going to go down well.

 

[smokedout]

I think the mistake here is confusing revolutionary left wing politics with direct action campaigns.

In the case of climate change I think a pretty reasonable argument can be made that it's a topic that needs urgent addressing outside that dynamic, although it is a dangerous road to go down....

I don't really see how it can be addressed outside of that though. It's not like legalising pot or saving a local beauty spot or other single issue campaigns, capitalism is causing climate change, and I can't really imagine a form of capitalism that could prevent that. I'd quite like to see Extinction Rebellion tell the truth about that, as loudly as possible.

 

[Sprocket.]

I’ve never seen rabbits or ants join a picket.

 

[Spymaster]

Dogs are ok. They would vote same way as there human owners. Dogs being dogs.

My dog will vote for whoever has the most Wotsits.

 

[Gramsci]

Just had the Police interviewed on Radio 4 news.

It appears the peaceful nature of the protest is a real hindrance for the cops. They arent like proper rioters one can get stuck into. So in his view government should look into new legislation to increase police powers to deal with this new kind of peaceful protest.

IMO Police already have powers. They are using anti terror legislation. If they really wanted to they could go all out and arrest hundreds of people on Waterloo Bridge for example. Its that they aren't using them.

They have powers to do all this.

 

[smokedout]

I’ve never seen rabbits or ants join a picket.

To be fair I'm basing my assessment of rabbit politics on the nice rabbits in Watership Down, but there were some pretty horrible rabbits as well. And thinking again ants would probably vote for the Queen so maybe votes for animals isn't such a great idea.

 

[Gramsci]

Also the cop on radio four was blaming protestors for adversely affecting the "Well Being" of the police force.

As these poor Cops had to earn lucrative overtime policing these protestors over Bank Holiday weekend.

Instead of being with their families.

I blame Extinction Rebellion.

 

[Sprocket.]

Don’t trust hippies!

 

[Treacle Toes]

Also the cop on radio four was blaming protestors for adversely affecting the "Well Being" of the police force.

Fucking hell.

 

[butchersapron]

The people behind it seem depressingly naive. I watched this video on non violence from one of the founders earlier, and its relentlessly dreadful, like listening to some drunk hippy's plans to bring down the government based on a load of top of their head nonsense at the end of an all night party.

Edit: Not that this is any reflection on those out on the streets taking action.

WTF i want the world to end now. That's the worst video i've ever seen. He actually says that i/we need to be an intermediary power or i/we will destroy society and i have the power to do so.

That was an astonishingly authoritarian talk.

 

[smokedout]

WTF i want the world to end now. That's the worst video i've ever seen. He actually says that i/we need to be an intermediary power or i/we will destroy society and i have the power to do so.

That was an astonishingly authoritarian talk.

It is pretty spectacularly awful, and on so many different levels.

Incidentally the study he uses to prove non violence as the most effective form of instigating change can be found here, and isn't really talking about non violence in the NVDA sense, but civil resistance vs guerilla or armed uprising. Given they dont seem to have published the dataset they based this on (or maybe they do in their book but I couldnt find it), its difficult to make an assessment of how non violent the non violent movements actually were, what other factors were at play and what they mean by success.

 

[butchersapron]

It is pretty spectacularly awful, and on so many different levels.

Incidentally the study he uses to prove non violence as the most effective form of instigating change can be found here, and isn't really talking about non violence in the NVDA sense, but civil resistance vs guerilla or armed uprising. Given they dont seem to have published the dataset they based this on (or maybe they do in their book but I couldnt find it), its difficult to make an assessment of how non violent the non violent movements actually were, what other factors were at play and what they mean by success.

Imagine all that energy of the kids stuff over recent weeks directed into this cunt negotiating a post-reichstag state of emergency with the state. That's his actual plan. I had no fucking idea.

Well, there's always potential to overflow the boundaries but fucking hell...

 

[nogojones]

Never mind the co2, worry about the nitrous oxide which is hundreds of times worse and attacks ozone

No one's been monitoring emissions of that

Every balloon kills a baby penguin

 

[toblerone3]

Fuck the people who "need" to use aeroplanes to get away for an Easter break. Those people need to take a look at themselves, the cunts.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Fuck the people who "need" to use aeroplanes to get away for an Easter break. Those people need to take a look at themselves, the cunts.

Yeah fuck all those cunts flying home to visit family over Easter.

 

[Gramsci]

The people behind it seem depressingly naive. I watched this video on non violence from one of the founders earlier, and its relentlessly dreadful, like listening to some drunk hippy's plans to bring down the government based on a load of top of their head nonsense at the end of an all night party.

Edit: Not that this is any reflection on those out on the streets taking action.

Had a look at this.

On its being authoritarian. Must say its ambivalent on "participatory democracy". Which I thought was central. But not from what he says.

He says a weakness of previous movements is competing groups and who decides.

( I would suggest that is more democratic than what he is proposing. Not necessarily a weakness)

So a "democratic culture" is needed. Consisting of grass roots, leaders and participatory democracy.

To get to that stage in reality "key activists" need to be found to be trained up ( by him I assume) as leaders. Then what he calls some "semblance of participation" is required.

So it does sound top down in practise. If in a nice way.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

Had a look at this.

On its being authoritarian. Must say its ambivalent on "participatory democracy". Which I thought was central. But not from what he says.

He says a weakness of previous movements is competing groups and who decides.

( I would suggest that is more democratic than what he is proposing. Not necessarily a weakness)

So a "democratic culture" is needed. Consisting of grass roots, leaders and participatory democracy.

To get to that stage in reality "key activists" need to be found to be trained up ( by him I assume) as leaders. Then what he calls some "semblance of participation" is required.

So it does sound top down in practise. If in a nice way.

It could become more grassroots if people got involved and changed the direction

I feel ambivalent about a lot of XR strategy but I can see that the organisation that's built over recent months has been the key to keeping the action going since Sunday

 

[kenny g]

Just had the Police interviewed on Radio 4 news.

It appears the peaceful nature of the protest is a real hindrance for the cops. They arent like proper rioters one can get stuck into. So in his view government should look into new legislation to increase police powers to deal with this new kind of peaceful protest.

IMO Police already have powers. They are using anti terror legislation. If they really wanted to they could go all out and arrest hundreds of people on Waterloo Bridge for example. Its that they aren't using them.

They have powers to do all this.

Wasn't aware of anti-terror legislation being used. In these circumstances, the Public Order Act 1986 section 14 powers that are being mentioned on Waterloo Bridge are pretty weak, and in the case of a peaceful protest I can see some concerns may exist about making charges stick/ crossing the public interest threshold for CPS prosecutors:

Public Order Act 1986

At the end of the day these are level 3 fineable offences which are chicken shit.

There are also the various problems about having to justify an arrest under Code G of PACE. Para 2.9 (v) expressly mentions causing an unlawful obstruction of the highway as a grounds for arrest but emphasises the advantage of warning having been provided prior to arrest. https://assets.publishing.service.g...achment_data/file/117583/pace-code-g-2012.pdf

It is once there is any lack of "peace" that a whole raft of excessive police powers and offences can kick in. IMHO The successful use of peaceful disruption over the last few days remains impressive. I just wonder to what extent in the past police tactics were to use special demonstration squad members to assist with creating non-peaceful protests so the batons could start to swing as is being demanded by most of the press.

 

[Pickman's model]

Every balloon kills a baby penguin

Increased nitrous oxide emissions from Arctic peatlands after permafrost thaw